Open Letter to Dr Hilary Cass

I’m not saying you’re mind readers. I replied to a different poster further down in the thread explaining what I meant by that.

You unchanging biological sex - whether you are a man or a woman - is not your history it is your past, present and future and will stay with you for hundreds of thousands of years if you are buried in suitable conditions for slow decay

Well obviously if they know you are male (which I’m guessing they do) and have decided to be your friend anyway, that’s fine. It would seem to be a rather large elephant to leave in the room and implies that it is a rather superficial friendship. My oldest female friends know pretty much everything about me as we have deeply rooted common experiences.

But you didn’t answer my earlier question about whether it not they knew so I made the point that the fact you are male is a fundamental part of your existence and successfully concealing that in some circumstances is a crime. Honesty is important in friendships.

And it's no better if the main deception is the transgender person's self-deception that they are "going stealth".

AND if you (crafty) are not truthful then what you see as a "deeper relationship with women" is nothing more than 100% dishonest relationships with women, and if the relationship is dishonest it has no value.

You literally said this:* *

There was also a social element about not being able to develop deeper friendships with women

How is anyone supposed to work out that in reality you meant young girls? We’re not mind readers you know.

And now you are being rude and borderline aggressive because we took you at your word. Remind me how these ‘deep friendships’ with women are going again?

Really? Oh dear. I had formed an opinion of Crafty as someone who was being 'an honest broker' in these discussions, thoughtful and measured, I even hoped that Crafty was reasonable and honourable enough to respect women's spaces..

Say it ain't so, Crafty!😞

With regards "tricking passers by" there are two ways of looking at it, and I am honestly not sure which one I think more than the other.

(1) It is utterly pointless and relatively harmless. Carry on.

(2) It is inherently anti-social and using the law and / or shaming we need to try to get people to stop doing it.

But the point I was trying to make was not about whether or not you should or should not do it, the point was about how anyone with decent mental health gets ZERO benefit from tricking strangers who don't really care who / what you are. My point is that by definition "passing" involves pointless trickery of people who mean nothing to you and vice versa, or it means rendering an otherwise close relationship as utterly meaningles as it is built on a lie.

Why do you think you or anyone is entitled to history? I’ve built friendships as how I’m seen now. Isn’t that more important? If people can always tell that means they’ve decided they want me as a friend regardless

I think the problem with this is that you are assuming that 'they accurately perceive their characteristics to be opposite to their identity.' is not a distortion in the case of transgender people.
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I understand that you believe that the 'inner sense' telling a biological male that their identity is female is valid, accurate and not a distortion.

Millions disagree - identifying as something which is at odds with your biological reality is seen by probably most people as a distorted perception.

I really don't see the the difference between believing that one's body should not have legs, and that one's body should not have male genitalia.

Both are so deeply held by some people that they will undergo surgery to remove healthy but unwanted parts of their bodies. I don't think you can make a distinction between the person who wants to change their body so they have no legs, because they have an inner sense that they should be a wheelchair user, and the person who wants to change their body so they have no penis because they have an inner sense that they should not be a penis-haver.

Well said.

It is unconscionable that this proposed study wishes to irrevocably harm a fresh cohort of children instead of examining the existing patients they started medicating 10 years ago or trying to contact detransitioners. They would provide a mountain of invaluable data.

Men who use women spaces, but claim stereotyping is detrimental, are asserting a contradiction.

Women's spaces are for women.

They are not to be repurposed for the service or comfort of men.

That is gender stereotyping. That women are support humans and their spaces should play a role in helping men.

Sexism is so insidious. People will agree it's wrong, while demanding people observe it.

Concealing the fact that you are male is not the same as not admitting you are gay.

As pp points out, it is regarded as so important that concealing that fact in a sexual relationship is a crime - rape by deception.

The notion of 'stealth' is precisely 'deception'.

Lying is wrong. Ignoring women's boundaries is wrong. Cheating is wrong. Deceiving people is wrong.

I see. Just noting that any male who uses women's spaces is transgressing, disregarding women's boundaries, and often leading to women self excluding from groups/spaces/events that were set up for women.

It's wrong. Women need their stuff.

Women generally won't say so to your face, either because we are socialised to 'be kind', or because we are afraid.

But we are not happy with it, and we do not consent.

Crafty said yesterday that Crafty attended a woman's book club after Crafty's friend, who Crafty has never discussed the fact that Crafty is a man with, invited Crafty.

Most situations I don't think it matters if you are male or female.

The cashier in Tesco doesn't care as long as you can pay for your purchases.

The traffic warden about to ticket your car doesn't care as long as you move your car in the next 15 seconds.

But in other circumstances where it actually matters, for example getting medical treatment, being invited to a woman's book group, potentially having a relationship with someone then it fundamentally matters that you be truthful.

I take it you stay out of women's spaces, ByCraftyMaker.

I understand why you might think it’s a concocted backstory with the horrible stories you hear. I won’t be able to convince you either way, but I have tried to come to this discussion with honesty.

Is it possible that your issue was that you were a sensitive boy seeking deeper friendships, and because you were a child who - in the scheme of things - knew sweet FA about anything like all other children, thought that the answer was to become a girl?
I was a very sensitive child and didn’t fit in with the boys so it is possible that’s why I thought I should’ve been a girl. I did also experience a lot of distress about how I was developing male secondary characteristics so there was also a body component. Deciding to transition wasn’t a rash decision. I managed to avoid it until my early 20s, but I was incredibly depressed about it by this point, so I decided to do it. I honestly don’t know if it was the right decision or if I could’ve eventually learned to been happy as a man, but I will say my life is a lot better now and I’m much happier

Men can't have 'deeper friendships' with women?!

is something you should support ending

it's a head scratcher, because crafty called it conversion therapy a minute ago

Trans ideology upholds sexism. That's what it does. It's cements in gender stereotypes.

All the little boys who couldn't wear tutus, all the girls who were butch, or became same sex attracted.

And yet trans idealogues claim that trying to show this to children, and undo all the hopelessly sexist propaganda they've been taught, is conversion therapy.

Bugger, how did I manage to miss off the other link? Sorry!
Atlantic article:

If getting rid of stereotypes is a good thing then one could make a very strong argument that transgenderism - relying as it does entirely on regressive sex-based stereotypes - is something you should support ending.

When did you first come across / think of the idea that you self-perception with regards stereotypes was more important than reality?

Getting rid of these stereotypes is a good thing. I would’ve had a much happier childhood if there were no stereotypes and I could’ve done the things I liked instead of hiding what I wanted to avoid being shamed and bullied