Open Letter to Dr Hilary Cass

That’s just false. See R v Brown.

I think neutral talking therapy to help someone explore their feelings is a good thing. But if the goal of that therapy is to convince someone they’re not trans, that would be conversion therapy.

Thank you!

I'm afraid I'm a minority among trans people. Or, well, I don't know about minority, strictly speaking, but certainly nowhere as loud as the extremists :/ But I'm seeing more and more alternate trans voices rising up here and there, so there's hope!

Adults have a right to do what they want to their body, subject to the restrictions that society places on them either to protect the (potentially vulnerable) adult themselves or to protect society from the consequences.

I believe that in the case of medical transition there is very good reason for society to restrict adult transition, for the benefit of the trans person AND wider society.

Hi Seethlaw

Just to say that I really appreciate your posts and your insight. I honestly think that if the trans issue was dealt with in the way you do, we wouldn't have difficulties.

Sorry, that might not be the right way of putting it, but just wanted you to know that I read your posts with interest and am glad to see you back here.

Thank you for your thoughtful posts - you are always interesting to read.

If I could say one thing to you though, please prioritise the health of your body. Having been through a female related bout of debilitating ill health and significant pain for two years (I’m feeling much better now thanks to medication and tai chi) , I can’t emphasise how important it is to protect your body. You may be young enough to feel physically well now but knowing what I know about the effects of natural hormones on our bodies, I dread to think of the effects of unnatural hormones long term.

I understand that you want to balance the comfort of your mind but just think about what your body needs too. It’s hard to remain in good spirits if every move is agony and you can’t even eat or lie down without pain.

That’s just false. See R v Brown.

Fair enough.

TBH now that I no longer believe that anyone has a gender identity, it's really hard to put myself in the shoes of someone who does hold this belief who also wants to do something permanent and harmful their body to match their belief.

It always strikes me as being akin to the extreme end of religious belief. Such as the Christians of Jonestown and Waco or the Muslim suicide bomber in Manchester.

Adults have a right to do what they want to their body, subject to the restrictions that society places on them either to protect the (potentially vulnerable) adult themselves or to protect society from the consequences.

I believe that in the case of medical transition there is very good reason for society to restrict adult transition, for the benefit of the trans person AND wider society.

Thank you :) !

I don't really know what to say, other than "I agree with all this." Including and especially the "damaging social movement" bit. I had personal experience with these types back when I transitioned and dipped a toe into the trans community (if you can call it that, really), and I was appalled at how profoundly nasty they could be with anyone who didn't fawn to them. And more than a bit afraid at how easily they resorted to verbal and emotional violence. I'm not at all surprised that this violence turned physical as well. They really act like the worst of men, through and through.

Which one is it? Is transition lessening your discomfort (whilst not actually being a solution) as you first said, or has your transition failed to reduce your discomfort at all as you have just said?

Ah, my bad, sorry. I shouldn't have said "dysphoria", that's not right. What I meant is that my feeling of being a boy/man was always there, and nothing I or anyone else has done has ever modified it (I did manage to entirely ignore it under extreme mental duress, but that's another story.) It's just there, like my nose on my face or my liver in my belly. Transitioning didn't have any effect on it that I noticed.

It seems to me that if all transition has done has lessened your discomfort, then that can only be a good option if the physical negative side effects are very small. (I believe that the negative side effects are massive)

Heh. I weighed the pros and cons, and still went for it and have had no cause to regret it so far. But I wouldn't go for a phalloplasty, for example, even if I had the means for it, because the cons are way too high for me, and the pros nowhere appealing enough. Also, I think these are decisions that can only be taken by well-informed adults, and it breaks my heart that so many young girls are pushed to take those steps. That's beyond wrong.

Medical transition definitely did me good. It lessened the gap between my mental and physical images, thus reducing my psychological tension on this matter, and helped with my social transition, which was essential to me.

Earlier you said "I can't even get proper help for much more common and debilitating MH issues, so I'm not going to wait until some miracle happens and I stumble upon a therapist who just happens to know how to go about dealing with that. It's simply not going to happen - so I go the way of lessening the discomfort with transition."

Now you are saying "My dysphoria has always been there, and nothing has ever created so much as a dent in it"

Which one is it? Is transition lessening your discomfort (whilst not actually being a solution) as you first said, or has your transition failed to reduce your discomfort at all as you have just said?

It seems to me that if all transition has done has lessened your discomfort, then that can only be a good option if the physical negative side effects are very small. (I believe that the negative side effects are massive)

If the latter is true and transition has done no good, then if transition cost money or gave even the most trivial of negative side effects then it was definitely not a good idea.

I can agree that the second person potentially believes that their gendered soul was born in the wrong(-sexed) body... but they could just feel something like what we call gender dysphoria and have no metaphysical explaination for it.

I am not sure why you assume that the first person doesn't feel that they have a "legless soul" or an "amputee soul" and that aligning the body to match the soul is the answer. It seems to me to be perfectly palusible that some people with BIID do feel like that (but perhaps we simply have not listened to their voices)?

You might be right, but I am not convinced that you are.

What do you think trans identity can possibly be other than mental illness? What other options are there?

Neurological issues? As in, something wrong with the wiring of the brain?

(Oops, posted by mistake, sorry!)

Do you have sympathy with the idea that "gender dysphoria" is nothing more than a possible sympton of other mental health issues?

Sure, that's a possibility. Maybe not in all cases, I don't know, but certainly in some.

Do you fear waking up one day and realizing that in mental health terms you are back to square one, only with significant physical health issues to deal with too?

No. My dysphoria has always been there, and nothing has ever created so much as a dent in it, so I have no reason to believe it's going to magically disappear. But should it disappear one day? Heh, cool! One thing less to deal with :)

That's very interesting, and thank you for sharing it. It's good that you feel more right about yourself now, but it is unfortunate that you couldn't just look at yourself as you were and think, 'Not perfect, but it'll do'.

As you say, it is just how you feel, as is Crafty's experience, as is mine. 'Fair play to you', as we say here in Ireland, for acknowledging that it is just anecdotal, and for not presenting your feelings and your experience as something everybody should agree with.

The big problem is that a very small number of very vocal and sometimes violent trans identifying men have somehow turned their anecdotal issues with biology into a disproportionately influential and, I believe, damaging social movement.

Your experience is probably going to be 'read' in that context, which is a pity as you as you have always pointed out that you are not claiming to be a trans spokesperson.

Being a woman isn't a feeling, a male isn't somehow internally a woman just because they feel unhappy with how they look, their male body or a desire to have a female body. Its totally insulting to actual women to somehow assume that any of that makes you a woman or gives you the right to access out spaces or legal protections.

I accept that you and other males might feel very unhappy with who you are and that as an adult it's your right to do what you want to your body. However it needs to be very clear that none of that makes you actually a female or a woman and if you can understand that and respect the law then there is no issue.

The only difference I can think of is that the second person believes themselves to have a gendered soul that is separate from their sexed body... and that their soul is misaligned with their body.

The first person presumably doesn't believe themselves to be an amputee soul trapped in a bipedal body that is misaligned with their amputee-souled self. However, if they do believe that, there's no difference from what I can see.

What do you think trans identity can possibly be other than mental illness? What other options are there?

Do you have sympathy with the idea that "gender dysphoria" is nothing more than a possible sympton of other mental health issues? For example some women with PTSD relating to SA will seek to reject the body that caused them to be a victim? An austic teen lesbian with internalized homophobia can only make sense of their feelings of attraction to women by thinking of themselves as a straight man?

Do you fear waking up one day and realizing that in mental health terms you are back to square one, only with significant physical health issues to deal with too?

I never said it was. I was specifically talking about my experience with dysphoria at an age where it seemed like boys and only be friend with boys and girls can only be friends girls. As I got older that changed and I had good friendships with women, but feeling that my body developed the wrong way never went away.

I am trying to think this through... is my logic sound?

Someone who thinks they should be legless and wheelchair bound has a perceived flaw (the existence of legs) which isn't there. As they do have legs the flaw we are talking about is not the flaw of having legs (which is of course not a flaw at all), it must be that they incorrectly perceive the existence of legs as a flaw.

Similarly someone who thinks they should be a woman when they are a man has a perceived flaw (their unchangeable biological sex) which isn't there. As having an unchangeable biological sex is not a flaw (if it were every human being would be flawed in this regard) then the flaw we are talking about is not the flaw of being male, it must be that they incorrectly perceive their unchangeable sex as the flaw.

It seems to me that the two things are practically identical.

Yeah, sure, and I wouldn't even necessarily disagree. I mean, if doctors demonstrated tomorrow that transidentity is purely a mental illness, I'd go, "Makes sense."

The thing is, though, I can't even get proper help for much more common and debilitating MH issues, so I'm not going to wait until some miracle happens and I stumble upon a therapist who just happens to know how to go about dealing with that. It's simply not going to happen - so I go the way of lessening the discomfort with transition. It's not perfect, but it's better than - literally - nothing.

You do understand that reading this, most peoples reaction is "it sounds like seethlaw needs significant mental health support. The absolute last thing she needs is to take puberty blockers or wrong sex hormones that will very likely cause massive physical harm whilst doing nothing to address the mental health issues".

Even if it were proven that there were precisely zero negative side effects I would still be arguing that there is no way that the best path involves affirming poor mental health when we have the option of trying to treat it.

Is it possible that your issue was that you were a sensitive boy seeking deeper friendships, and because you were a child who - in the scheme of things - knew sweet FA about anything like all other children, thought that the answer was to become a girl?

[The above paragraph assumes for one moment that the whole backstory is not one that you have, consciously or sub-consciously, created as an adult to cover the tracks of your adult sexual motivations]