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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girlguiding - Supreme Court Decision email

518 replies

ProfMummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 02/12/2025 14:07

Have just had an email from them...

As the parent of a young member in Girlguiding, following April’s Supreme Court decision relating to sex and gender, we wanted to give you an update. Many organisations across the country have been facing complex decisions about what it means for girls and women and for the wider communities affected, including us.

Girlguiding’s governing charity documents set out that the membership and people who benefit from our organisation are girls and women. In April, the Supreme Court ruled that girls and women are defined in the Equality Act 2010 by their biological sex at birth.

Following detailed considerations, expert legal advice and input from senior members, young members and our Council, Girlguiding’s Board of Trustees has made the difficult decision that Girlguiding must change Girlguiding must change, following the Supreme Court’s ruling.

From today, 2 December, it is with a heavy heart that we are announcing trans girls and young women will no longer be able to join Girlguiding. This is a decision we would have preferred not to make, and we know that this may be upsetting for members of our community.

There will be no immediate changes for current young members but more information will be shared next week.

Most adult roles, including unit helpers, district helpers and administrative support, are already open to all, so we are confident that no volunteers will have to leave the organisation.

Girlguiding believes strongly in our value of inclusion, and we will continue to support young people and adults in marginalised groups. Over the next few months, we'll explore opportunities to champion this value and actively support young people who need us.

You can find our full statement and updated policy on our website.

We are proud to be the UK’s largest youth organisation dedicated to girls and is focused on creating an equal world for girls and young women. For over 100 years, we have been a welcoming space for all girls to have new experiences, support their communities, build friendships and grow their confidence.

While Girlguiding may feel a little different going forward, these core aims and principles will always be the same. We remain committed to treating everyone with dignity and respect, particularly those from marginalised groups that have felt the biggest impact of this decision.

If you have any immediate questions, we have our special support team in place, to give volunteers, parents and carers the best support we can. We are asking Girlguiding HQ, trading and country/region staff to refer any volunteer or parent who has questions about this announcement.

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TheNightingalesStarling · 05/12/2025 10:54

Helleofabore · 05/12/2025 10:45

"If anything, a third organisation is needed just for boys, as sometimes they need the space too."

I thought we have had people mention that there are male only scout groups allowed at the moment? If that is true, I think that is a great thing.

The only boys only (by rules, not just chance) are some Muslim groups who run parallel Scout groups, with the same activities. You can exclude girls.

(Also Closed groups such as in YOI or single sex schools)

SternJoyousBeev2 · 05/12/2025 10:51

LostMySocks · 05/12/2025 08:25

I am a Guide leader. I always recommend that if girls are not sure which group then they should give both a try.

Girl only groups are not necessarily less noisy (my Guides are a very chatty lot and love running games) but just offer a different environment for girls. We find that girls will (in general) look out for each other more than boys and are also extremely supportive of each other when trying challenges such as climbing or abseiling. Not saying boys aren't but we're talking about average groups.

Guides and Scouts are not in competition - we both have similar aims but deliver in different environments. It is frustrating that people continue to suggest that Guides only do boring crafts and cooking when we have a balanced programme and lots of being out and about, adventurous activities etc etc

We don't have girl only groups for safety we have them as that is what girls continue to tell us that they want. If we went mixed sex then we have no USP and no reason for being.

Yep!

this echoes my experience with mixed sex youth groups. The girls definitely enjoyed the opportunity to experience some of the activities as a single sex session as they were not being overlooked by the boys who tended to dominate and get more attention from the leaders.

Mixed sex is great but some girls want and deserve to retain the choice to have single sex opportunities.

KatieAlcock · 05/12/2025 10:46

Datun · 05/12/2025 10:34

Do the scouts definitely segregate by sex for sleeping and showering?

Because, if so, why aren't they being targeted for transphobia?

They don't - it's officially by gender - but I make it clear to my children's leaders it must be by sex. They have been understanding so far.

Helleofabore · 05/12/2025 10:45

TheNightingalesStarling · 05/12/2025 08:40

As a Cub leader, I'll be sad if Gudes is forced to either going mixed sex or close completely.

We are two sides of a coin. Guides give girls something we can't... and Scouts give them something Guides can't. If anything, a third organisation is needed just for boys, as sometimes they need the space too.

(Obviously though, each unit/pack/troop/conglomerate really varies on the skills of the leaders. We are a "traditional" group, strong on skills like woodcraft, outdoor activities, camping etc... (and pretty rubbish at craft) where as the local Brownies is very arty and refuse our offers to use our woodland for activities (for free). )

"If anything, a third organisation is needed just for boys, as sometimes they need the space too."

I thought we have had people mention that there are male only scout groups allowed at the moment? If that is true, I think that is a great thing.

Datun · 05/12/2025 10:34

Do the scouts definitely segregate by sex for sleeping and showering?

Because, if so, why aren't they being targeted for transphobia?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/12/2025 09:13

SternlyMatthews · 05/12/2025 06:40

This was from reading the judgement

Yes, I saw the discussion as it happened. It was a penny dropping moment as was said by me and others.

LostMySocks · 05/12/2025 09:07

Lovelyview · 05/12/2025 08:33

Thank you for articulating why guides exist so beautifully. I'm disappointed so many don't understand this. I hope guides manages to get over this. Do you feel able to say this to people in the guides or do you have to keep quiet?

I say this in person to parents, friends and leaders In both Guides and Scouts.
I'd never put it on a Forum as there is so much abuse thrown at women.

forgotmyusername1 · 05/12/2025 08:56

Where the scouts are on socials saying how inclusive they are have they considered what they will do when the new influx of trans girls and their parents demand they sleep in the girls tents and use the girls shower blocks on scout camp?

TheNightingalesStarling · 05/12/2025 08:40

As a Cub leader, I'll be sad if Gudes is forced to either going mixed sex or close completely.

We are two sides of a coin. Guides give girls something we can't... and Scouts give them something Guides can't. If anything, a third organisation is needed just for boys, as sometimes they need the space too.

(Obviously though, each unit/pack/troop/conglomerate really varies on the skills of the leaders. We are a "traditional" group, strong on skills like woodcraft, outdoor activities, camping etc... (and pretty rubbish at craft) where as the local Brownies is very arty and refuse our offers to use our woodland for activities (for free). )

Alpacajigsaw · 05/12/2025 08:37

I’d have hated the Scouts had it been an option when I was a kid. I didn’t like or feel comfortable with boys, other than my dad I had no males really in my life growing up. I only had a sister and all of my mum’s friends only had daughters. That said I hated guides as well but that was because the leader was a bitch!

Lovelyview · 05/12/2025 08:33

LostMySocks · 05/12/2025 08:25

I am a Guide leader. I always recommend that if girls are not sure which group then they should give both a try.

Girl only groups are not necessarily less noisy (my Guides are a very chatty lot and love running games) but just offer a different environment for girls. We find that girls will (in general) look out for each other more than boys and are also extremely supportive of each other when trying challenges such as climbing or abseiling. Not saying boys aren't but we're talking about average groups.

Guides and Scouts are not in competition - we both have similar aims but deliver in different environments. It is frustrating that people continue to suggest that Guides only do boring crafts and cooking when we have a balanced programme and lots of being out and about, adventurous activities etc etc

We don't have girl only groups for safety we have them as that is what girls continue to tell us that they want. If we went mixed sex then we have no USP and no reason for being.

Thank you for articulating why guides exist so beautifully. I'm disappointed so many don't understand this. I hope guides manages to get over this. Do you feel able to say this to people in the guides or do you have to keep quiet?

LostMySocks · 05/12/2025 08:25

JeannieDark · 05/12/2025 07:55

Yes I see a lot of girls who are so intimidated moving from Beavers to Cubs. We have very few girls in Cubs and a lot in Beavers so I’m hoping it will be easier when the next cohort move up as I think some of the girls might not continue otherwise.

I am a Guide leader. I always recommend that if girls are not sure which group then they should give both a try.

Girl only groups are not necessarily less noisy (my Guides are a very chatty lot and love running games) but just offer a different environment for girls. We find that girls will (in general) look out for each other more than boys and are also extremely supportive of each other when trying challenges such as climbing or abseiling. Not saying boys aren't but we're talking about average groups.

Guides and Scouts are not in competition - we both have similar aims but deliver in different environments. It is frustrating that people continue to suggest that Guides only do boring crafts and cooking when we have a balanced programme and lots of being out and about, adventurous activities etc etc

We don't have girl only groups for safety we have them as that is what girls continue to tell us that they want. If we went mixed sex then we have no USP and no reason for being.

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 05/12/2025 08:20

The cis bit obviously!

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 05/12/2025 08:20

Trans people under 18 are banned from accessing puberty blockers or hormones on the NHS and now privately too, no matter what doctors or parents think is best. Cis teenagers with medical needs get treatment

missed this….also bollocks

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 05/12/2025 08:17

Adult trans people wait five to ten years for a first NHS appointment and many GPs still refuse to prescribe hormones even when told to by a specialist

this may well be true

Cis patients do not face that delay or refusal for comparable healthcare

this is utter utter bollocks

(most of that post was easily fixed by changing trans women to men and cis women to women…but the above is particularly egregious)

JeannieDark · 05/12/2025 07:55

littlebilliie · 05/12/2025 07:51

My DD joined cubs and brownies, the first session at cubs was too much for her. The boys were too much for her and we did the brownie guide route. She was a shy child and she bloomed at the brownies and guides. She was free to be a little girl, it’s not just about any perceived threat it was more about a special time being around girls only.

Yes I see a lot of girls who are so intimidated moving from Beavers to Cubs. We have very few girls in Cubs and a lot in Beavers so I’m hoping it will be easier when the next cohort move up as I think some of the girls might not continue otherwise.

littlebilliie · 05/12/2025 07:51

JeannieDark · 05/12/2025 07:37

I’m a leader in Scouting and a lot of our girls are nervous about moving up from the younger sections because the older groups are so boy heavy. Both my son and daughter are members and I’m happy we chose Scouting for my daughter but I can definitely see why some girls want a single sex group such as Guiding. I’m surprised though that the comments on posts by Guiding groups are so against this decision (and they do seem to be from members although who can ever know). I don’t know if it’s just that the members who are happy with it can’t say so openly (plausible) or if a lot of Guiding members would actually be happy with a mixed sex group? If they genuinely would like a mixed sex group then setting it up that way openly at least allows for proper safeguarding.

My DD joined cubs and brownies, the first session at cubs was too much for her. The boys were too much for her and we did the brownie guide route. She was a shy child and she bloomed at the brownies and guides. She was free to be a little girl, it’s not just about any perceived threat it was more about a special time being around girls only.

forgotmyusername1 · 05/12/2025 07:41

JeannieDark · 05/12/2025 07:37

I’m a leader in Scouting and a lot of our girls are nervous about moving up from the younger sections because the older groups are so boy heavy. Both my son and daughter are members and I’m happy we chose Scouting for my daughter but I can definitely see why some girls want a single sex group such as Guiding. I’m surprised though that the comments on posts by Guiding groups are so against this decision (and they do seem to be from members although who can ever know). I don’t know if it’s just that the members who are happy with it can’t say so openly (plausible) or if a lot of Guiding members would actually be happy with a mixed sex group? If they genuinely would like a mixed sex group then setting it up that way openly at least allows for proper safeguarding.

It's because in their heads it is 7 year olds colouring in and playing jump rope together not 15 year olds sharing tents and showers on guide camp. Ask them if they are happy for their 15 year old daughter to share a tent with 15 year old John (known as Jane)... crickets

JeannieDark · 05/12/2025 07:37

I’m a leader in Scouting and a lot of our girls are nervous about moving up from the younger sections because the older groups are so boy heavy. Both my son and daughter are members and I’m happy we chose Scouting for my daughter but I can definitely see why some girls want a single sex group such as Guiding. I’m surprised though that the comments on posts by Guiding groups are so against this decision (and they do seem to be from members although who can ever know). I don’t know if it’s just that the members who are happy with it can’t say so openly (plausible) or if a lot of Guiding members would actually be happy with a mixed sex group? If they genuinely would like a mixed sex group then setting it up that way openly at least allows for proper safeguarding.

oldtiredcyclist · 05/12/2025 07:23

This thread has "evolved" a bit hasn't it? It would seem that a murmuration of Redditors has turned up, telling people what lesbians are. I may be totally wrong, but as a bloke in his sixties, I can look back forty years to the time where I was working at a great company in London. The guys and the girls socialised regularly and I used to go our for coffee with this young woman, similar age to me. So, one day I plucked up the courage and asked her out, only to find out that she preferred women to men. Not a problem, we still went out for coffee together. As Ricky Gervais might say, what happened to all the old fashioned lesbians, the ones who like women?
In my humble opinion, a lesbian doesn't have sex with any male bodied person, irrespective of how they identify, because if they do, then they are either bisexual or heterosexual. It is all down to biology isn't it.

TheKeatingFive · 05/12/2025 07:11

EmpressaurusKitty · 05/12/2025 07:03

There’s stuff on trans Reddit about email & letter campaigns & in-person protests.

It sounds as if the only thing that will satisfy them is if Guiding goes officially mixed-sex, because that’s the only way boys who identify as girls can be admitted.

One more thing girls won’t get to have any longer. But none of them give a fuck about that.

Entitled male twats

FrippEnos · 05/12/2025 07:10

DuchessFaceRobbin · 04/12/2025 18:04

I’m not sure why I’m posting here. It seems mostly people who are happy that transgirls will be banned from Guides are voicing their excitement over the announcement and displaying their bigotry here. I’m saddened by these voices, but genuinely curious about people’s views, perceptions, and knowledge of the trans community.

My daughter and her friends (ages 11/12) in Girl Guides are saddened by the announcement and will be discussing it with their troop leaders next week. Many parents I know are equally upset that the WI and GG have had to make these statements this week to avoid legal action. Protests and petitions will be forthcoming and the fight for trans rights will continue.

I’d like to ask if and why are you afraid of trans people and what threat you think a transgirl poses to a troop. I’m 50 years old and have known people from all the letters of the LGBTQ+ community most of my life and have not ever felt threatened by them. No one is trying to ‘convert’ heterosexuals or get people to change their gender. Given the current climate of hatred towards trans and gender non-conforming people (stirred up by billionaires, politicians, and the christian right), why would any child, teen, or adult “choose” to be trans? Certainly not to “infiltrate” toilets and girl’s only spaces. These people are marginalised as it is. Heterosexual cisgender men continue to be the biggest threat to each other, women, trans people…

Do any of you know anyone who is trans, non-binary, intersex? Biological sex is not as simple as you’d like it to be. 1.7% of the population is intersex - as common as twins. Approximately 1 in 4500 assigned female at birth women are born without wombs.

Ok, done rambling…

Its called safeguarding, it protects the safety of children.

Even the scouts that are currently doing a bang up job of trying to capitalise on this by putting forward a seemingly massive campaign to snag the trans girls (boys) will still have to put them in separate tents/dorms to the girls due to safeguarding.

Its not really that hard to understand.

Oh and in the same vein as "stop using CIS its offensive".
Intersex people would like you to stop lumping them together with the Trans lobby.

EmpressaurusKitty · 05/12/2025 07:03

There’s stuff on trans Reddit about email & letter campaigns & in-person protests.

It sounds as if the only thing that will satisfy them is if Guiding goes officially mixed-sex, because that’s the only way boys who identify as girls can be admitted.

One more thing girls won’t get to have any longer. But none of them give a fuck about that.

SternlyMatthews · 05/12/2025 06:40

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/12/2025 00:59

It wasn’t just a joke. Did you watch the hearing online?

This was from reading the judgement

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/12/2025 00:59

SternlyMatthews · 04/12/2025 23:08

I read it as a a joke tbh, legal humour (& criticism too) tends to be quite restrained.

It wasn’t just a joke. Did you watch the hearing online?