Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Unwelcome Truth about Rape

90 replies

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 29/11/2025 08:53

I thought I'd post a link to this interesting article, it's likely to be received with hostility by those who bother to read it.

But I think it makes important points and might call for a complete rethink on how we as a society think of 'rape', especially in these day of increased VAWG. We can't protect against it if we can't identify it.

The Scientists Persecuted for Their Rape Research

"In their work, Thornhill and Palmer excuse nothing and absolve no one. They simply remind people that sexual violence has something to do with biology and that ignoring that fact means—at best—misunderstanding the nature of rape and, at worst, harming victims. In the face of such heresy, the outrage machine went into overdrive. There were defamatory articles, bad-faith readings, insults, and even threats from which the researchers needed police protection. At the end of it all, both their lives had been irreparably damaged."

The Scientists Persecuted for Their Rape Research

For their research showing that rape is generally motivated by sexual desire, Randy Thornhill and Craig Palmer were subjected to death threats and hounded in their personal and professional lives. And yet, they were right.

https://quillette.com/2025/11/27/the-unwelcome-truth-about-rape-thornhill-palmer/

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/11/2025 11:16

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 29/11/2025 11:13

Saying it’s just about sexual satisfaction seems like a really strange argument to me.

Nobody is saying it's just about sexual satisfaction, they're saying the impulse is is routed in sexual desire, power and control are also part of it, but are not necessarily the primary moving factor.

Plenty of people do say it’s just about sex. There are often two polar positions.

TempestTost · 29/11/2025 11:14

TempestTost · 29/11/2025 10:57

Even if rape victims were evenly distributed across age groups as you suggest, I'm not sure why you would think that meant it wasn't about sexual desire. That seems to be quite a leap.

I am going to add to this and just point out - rape isn't evenly distributed. It's very much concentrated, in fact. Statistically rapes cluster around women at the peak ages for fertility.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 29/11/2025 11:13

Saying it’s just about sexual satisfaction seems like a really strange argument to me.

Nobody is saying it's just about sexual satisfaction, they're saying the impulse is is routed in sexual desire, power and control are also part of it, but are not necessarily the primary moving factor.

OP posts:
TempestTost · 29/11/2025 11:12

MarieDeGournay · 29/11/2025 09:58

Thank you for the link, OP.
From the article:
Here are a few examples of the arguments they present: the victim’s physical appearance matters to the rapist; rape is first and foremost a sexual act, and only secondarily (and not always) motivated by a desire to dominate, humiliate, or annihilate; rape can be a means for the rapist to transmit his genes; reproductive biology plays a role in sexual coercion. Both researchers hammer home the point that while certain criteria—such as the victim’s age, appearance, and vulnerability—are important to the aggressor and this explains why men rape—this can never excuse rape, much less justify it.

My first thought is - does anyone deny that rape is by definition a sexual act? it is the motivations for the act that are debatable,
And surely it is accepted that rape is sometimes motivated primarily by 'biology', for instance the rape of a specific woman who the rapist knows would never have consensual sex with him?
But whatever the primary motivation, the whole context of such a rape is exercising power over a woman. I don't understand how the researchers think that power is not involved.

In other cases, as we all know, the only specificity sought by the rapist is that his victim is a woman - what she looks like, what she is wearing, who she is, is irrelevant. I don't see how they can build a whole theoretical framework about rape without looking at the range of motivations.

The Thornhill and Palmer affair is an ugly story. It is the story of two researchers who challenged intellectual orthodoxy and found themselves trapped in a world in which rumour counts as proof, the motivations falsely attributed to you matter more than what you actually wrote and people would rather punish men than refute ideas.
Is there an 'intellectual orthodoxy' that says that rape has nothing to do with sex?

Thornhill and Palmer “threatened a consensus that had held firm in intellectual life for a quarter of a century,” writes psychologist Steven Pinker in The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature_ (2002), the first book to detail the witch hunt.
Now it's a 'witch hunt'! And a reference to a book published in 2002.
I'm not convinced by their narrative of plucky researchers being silenced, not because their theories don't hold up, but because they are 'challenging orthodoxy..'

edited to add that I've seen the other posts now, and agree that rape in war is a very relevant challenge to their theory.

Edited

Yes, people do deny that it's sexual act. It seems very common in some feminist circles, almost taken as a kind of first principle. I've sometimes seen people say that sex can't be coercive or it isn't sex.

I think that this does result in some pretty basic issues that people who think this way have around understanding rape. If it isn't fundamentally sexual, than the way society deals with/understands sexual desire doesn't have anything to do with rape. The way this would impact an understanding of how we might understand or try to limit rape in settings like university campus drinking parties, for example - if it's not about loss of self-control due to alcohol and drug consumption mixed with sexual desire, but is instead mainly an attempt to assert a power dynamic, the remedies look rather different.

It would mean a sex saturated society would not be something that might make rape more of a problem.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/11/2025 11:09

SisterTeatime · 29/11/2025 11:08

Lots of things. Power, fear, coercion, anger, ‘peer pressure’, pack mentality, nihilism, a wish to seem powerful to others, a need to somehow imprint oneself on one’s victim. It’s also deeply humiliating for victims in a way that other kinds of torture might not be. And it’s free and accessible.

Saying it’s just about sexual satisfaction seems like a really strange argument to me. There may well be sexual elements intertwined in it, it would be surprising if that was completely absent, but it doesn’t take much imagination to think of lots of other motivations.

This.

tartyflette · 29/11/2025 11:08

I suppose I meant that the desire arises from the actual physical overpowering of the victim, hence it could be thought to be primarily about power, but I also take the point that looking at the age range, some men have what could be considered as highly perverted sexual fetishes.

SisterTeatime · 29/11/2025 11:08

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 29/11/2025 10:37

What but sexual satisfaction could explain such revolting behaviour? There are many other awful ways to humiliate and dominate men than raping them.

Lots of things. Power, fear, coercion, anger, ‘peer pressure’, pack mentality, nihilism, a wish to seem powerful to others, a need to somehow imprint oneself on one’s victim. It’s also deeply humiliating for victims in a way that other kinds of torture might not be. And it’s free and accessible.

Saying it’s just about sexual satisfaction seems like a really strange argument to me. There may well be sexual elements intertwined in it, it would be surprising if that was completely absent, but it doesn’t take much imagination to think of lots of other motivations.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/11/2025 11:08

Yes, but we’re no longer on the Serengeti, which limits the relevance of evolutionary psychology for me. I do find it interesting and can see that it is sometimes onto something important, but some people see it as the be all and end all for explaining human behaviour and I do not. I think lovers of evo psych (many of whom that I’ve encountered are fairly sexist men) are equally likely to reject more culturally based social analyses of human behaviour as feminists are to reject evolutionary explanations.

Mollydoggerson · 29/11/2025 11:07

It's about dominance. Gross egos.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 29/11/2025 11:07

TempestTost · 29/11/2025 11:01

Louise Perry makes an argument that is broadly similar to this, essentially, that at least some of the time, maybe a lot of the time, rape is mainly about sexual gratification.

On the face of it that seems fairly obvious, it's odd that so many feminists seem to think that its a problem. As if that would make it ok?

Sexual violence pretty clearly has some biological usefulness, or it wouldn't be such a common phenomena, and we see it in parts of the animal kingdom as well. That doesn't make it ok, any more than other forms of anti-social behaviour.

I agree, I'm currently reading her book The Case Against the Sexual Revolution, I think the possibility that it's biological is worth considering, (not by me I'm a dimwit), but by those who are in a position to make a difference when it comes to dealing with the victims of rape.

OP posts:
theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 29/11/2025 11:06

It's not about attraction or desire alone. These men are excited by violent sex. The same tendency in their ancestors led to reproductive success, and therefore got passed on. But the men can still get the excitement without any prospect of a pregnancy.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 29/11/2025 11:03

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/11/2025 10:57

So what are the “strategies” you think would be better? ISTR Thornhill and Palmer’s suggestions were pretty shitty in terms of victim blaming and putting the responsibility on women to “protect” themselves by not making themselves targets by wearing “provocative” clothes. Have you actually read their book itself?

I think the whole point is, only by accepting the possibility can we come up with the right strategies, and the article disagrees with you about them 'victim blaming' women for male behaviours. They weren't given the opportunity to explain their research because they were shut down by the 'perpetually offended of their day.

OP posts:
TempestTost · 29/11/2025 11:01

Louise Perry makes an argument that is broadly similar to this, essentially, that at least some of the time, maybe a lot of the time, rape is mainly about sexual gratification.

On the face of it that seems fairly obvious, it's odd that so many feminists seem to think that its a problem. As if that would make it ok?

Sexual violence pretty clearly has some biological usefulness, or it wouldn't be such a common phenomena, and we see it in parts of the animal kingdom as well. That doesn't make it ok, any more than other forms of anti-social behaviour.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/11/2025 10:59

I’m not sure why people think it has to be either/or. I think generally it’s about both sex and power.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 29/11/2025 10:59

tartyflette · 29/11/2025 10:51

If sexual desire is the ultimate focus of rape rather than power and control how do they explain the age range of female victims, from tiny babies to women in their 90s?

What but sexual desire could explain it, sexual desires come in all shapes and sizes, some men have what I would consider perverted desires.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/11/2025 10:57

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 29/11/2025 10:48

It depends on what you think the article was about, my take was because we have refused to accept there might be a biological reason for rape, our strategies to try and defend against it have failed.

Men who have invaded a country are away from home, their initial impulse to rape any women they come across is just as likely to be because they haven't had a chance to satisfy their sexual needs as to have anything to to with the wider picture of humiliating their 'enemy'.

So what are the “strategies” you think would be better? ISTR Thornhill and Palmer’s suggestions were pretty shitty in terms of victim blaming and putting the responsibility on women to “protect” themselves by not making themselves targets by wearing “provocative” clothes. Have you actually read their book itself?

TempestTost · 29/11/2025 10:57

tartyflette · 29/11/2025 10:51

If sexual desire is the ultimate focus of rape rather than power and control how do they explain the age range of female victims, from tiny babies to women in their 90s?

Even if rape victims were evenly distributed across age groups as you suggest, I'm not sure why you would think that meant it wasn't about sexual desire. That seems to be quite a leap.

ApplebyArrows · 29/11/2025 10:55

It can be an evolved trait and be about power. Species have evolved lots of strategies for establishing dominance. Understanding these is key to understanding the behaviours of social species (like humans).

I think you could easily construct an argument from an evopsych perspective that says men tend to want to dominate others and they especially tend to want to dominate women. That would very much put human males in line with many other male mammals. If you were to identify that as an (evolved) trait of human male psychology then it surely becomes highly questionable to think that that trait suddenly becomes irrelevant when rape happens.

It does though open up another, scarier possibility - that male sexual behaviours are often about dominance over women even when violence or overt violations of consent are not involved. Men can be exerting power over women even when they appear to be acting perfectly nice. I wonder what the scientists in the article would think of that conclusion?

tartyflette · 29/11/2025 10:54

Or are we to conclude that men, or should it be the male sex rapes just because they can and anything else is secondary?

tartyflette · 29/11/2025 10:51

If sexual desire is the ultimate focus of rape rather than power and control how do they explain the age range of female victims, from tiny babies to women in their 90s?

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 29/11/2025 10:48

prettydesertflower · 29/11/2025 09:50

Poorly written article which does not cover the relevant perspectives. The women raped as part of wars and civil unrest are raped to dehumanise and humiliate. It’s not about sexual desire.

It depends on what you think the article was about, my take was because we have refused to accept there might be a biological reason for rape, our strategies to try and defend against it have failed.

Men who have invaded a country are away from home, their initial impulse to rape any women they come across is just as likely to be because they haven't had a chance to satisfy their sexual needs as to have anything to to with the wider picture of humiliating their 'enemy'.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/11/2025 10:40

Theeyeballsinthesky · 29/11/2025 10:37

I guess that doesn't support their theory of sexual attraction being a large factor 🤷🏻‍♀️

Quite. I have read their paper, I can’t remember if it’s mentioned or not but it certainly isn’t the focus.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/11/2025 10:39

Culturally, it’s a powerful
and evocative humiliation and in war it’s often not just about humiliation of the rape victims but their people.