19th November is International Men's Day

Nothing wrong with IMD, but I do wonder if that's really the kind of thing men actually like? I am not sure having special awareness days is particularly likely to attract men to think about or do things.

I remember a few years ago a group here was trying to connect with black men, They had a couple false starts before they started going out to basketball games which seemed to have some success.

And each of the above responses, by definition, leads to better role models, in the measured tone, the associated actions, and the consequent influence on other boys and men, and the discourse itself.

I actually think knee-jerk responses to even the mention of "toxic masculinity" illustrate the problem quite well. "What about the men?" "Why do we have such and such for women but not men?" "Not all men!" There's a subtext of being undervalued and wronged which can lead to the resentment that drives boys and young men towards toxic masculinity. I wish we could change the narrative.

If only "What about the men?" and "Why do we have such and such for women but not men?" could become, "Well, women have a greater need (ref. male sexual violence), but some men do too, so 1) what can we do to model better behaviour to male aggressors and 2) address male victims' needs?"

And if "Not all men!" could become, "Yup, male violence can be an issue, can't it, but what me and my mates do to challenge those pathetic specimens who ARE the problem is..."

And "Toxic masculinity! Poor boys hearing that all the time, no wonder they're angry!" could become "Yes, isn't it great that we're doing (whatever) so the next generation isn't labelled this way..."

You have fallen into the trap of basically just arguing "masculinity = toxic" and it just draws resentment.

What a strange way to interpret what I said, CapacityBrown!

But on the other hand, it's a useful illustration of the bizarre but not uncommon idea that trying to protect boys from something toxic, i.e. damaging, is bad for them.

I have absolutely no idea how you interpreted what I wrote as 'basically just arguing "masculinity = toxic"' . I did nothing of the sort, and even provided a link to an example of a men's group that promotes very positive and affirmative masculinity.

Thank you Catiette for reading my post and responding to what I actually wrote.

IDGAF.

The focus should be on men's health. To reduce male suicides, which affect women and children left behind more than anyone.

I don't think Marie's fallen into any "trap" by referencing toxic masculinity in this way. She's just presented it as the risk, and potential temptation, it clearly is. Your post seems to risk equating mentioning it in this way with being part of the problem, with an assumption that such a mention consolidates the association between males and toxicity in the proportionate absence of alternative messages to balance it out: "I don't want to be part of the male group" and "boys need role models".

This idea that boys aren't presented with a sufficiently wide-ranging choice of ways to be male really, really frustrates me. Yes, there are major issues with representation - hence the need for the white ribboners (now thinking of Terry Pratchett!) But anyone who perceives representation as limited should first compare it to women's predicament. While Bechdel shows that we've hardly yet escaped maiden/mother/hag, and wider stats indicate our virtual disappearance age 40 onwards, we see positive examples of meaningful male agency across the age range EVERYWHERE: heroes, thinkers, workers, managers, politicians, sportsmen, everymen, young men, old men, beautiful men, normal-looking and even ugly (not that I like to use that word - feels judgy, ugh) men.

To hear that "In the current climate only men who are open about 'toxic masculinity' get any airtime" feels absurd and actually not a little upsetting to any woman over 40 who's watched live television and looked for herself - for a full, rounded, autonomous female living an imperfect and mundane middle age.

As said on another thread, why is feminism, as a social and political movement for the advancement of the rights and issues for and about women, expected to take every other group under it's wing? Why are women expected to organise stuff for men for International Men's Day as well as our own stuff for our own (now co-opted) day?

I'm very happy to support men in their campaigning and have in fact signed petitions to support funding for men's sheds and for support for male domestic violence survivors etc etc but why are we seen as everyone's handy organiser, putting our own concerns to one side to do the work for others?

It's just yet another aspect of women's work.

the only posts i saw of that type were posted ironically by people.

The vile backlash to women on Women's day is a thing to behold. And nothing at all of the type any men who moved their backsides to tweet about IMD receive. (not that i think anyone should get vile abuse)

I ignore it now for the most part. They can whine all they like about us choosing the bear, or a cat-lady life or watever. I simply cannot care and leave them to their (self imposed/created) misery.

I lsimply wanted to understand why the OP had chosen to post on this board in particular - now he’s explained that’s fine by me. 🤷‍♀️

The "toxic masculinity" argument is what has helped fuel transmaxxing and the trans movement. You will hear a lot of boys say "I don't want to be part of the male group because of toxic masculinity etc".

I actually do think people like Andrew Tate are the result of the backlash against terms like "toxic masculinity".

You have fallen into the trap of basically just arguing "masculinity = toxic" and it just draws resentment. I very rarely (if ever) hear about "positive masculinity" and hearing about people promoting a positive image for men. Boys need role models or a decent ideal to accede to. And yes it needs to come from men, but in the current climate only men who are open about "toxic masculinity" get any airtime.

It's interesting how a lot of the comments here have been mirrored by men who moan about International Women's Day. "Why are you posting here?", "it's men's fault etc" exactly the same gets posted by men in the internet about the other day.

International Men's Day actually helps justify International Women's Day and stops the constant "why do women get a day" message etc.

sorry, @Lavender14 - i shouldn't have assumed your son has a man in his life.

For the rest of your post? yes but i am focussing my efforts on improving the lives of women and girls. I am a 2nd waver. I am not expending more effort to improve the lives of men as A Thing. If it is a side effect of improving women and girls lives? All well and good.

But i am over it all now. Really honestly over it. Gender ID is reinforcing the harmful stereotypes we thought we had done away with. Clearly a woman's work is never ever done.

I'm a lone parent for reasons beyond our control so it falls to me. When his dad was still around these were regular conversations we were having about how we both actively step up in that way and his dad would have stepped up in the community in this respect.

Also, I do think this goes beyond women doing the thinking whetoit comes to parenting. To me, this is about embedding these principles into the next generation so young men are empowered to take these steps. I work alongside lots of men who really do step up in this way and are real community leaders in this respect so it does happen - but its harder to spread the word, it's harder to get real engagement from other men and a lot of times that's coming back to the core issues of gender stereotypes that block men from accessing appropriate support. And gender stereotypes are a social issue that harms women massively. There's also a massive issue in that this work tends to be started from grassroots community level - women are predominantly the key players and employees in the community and voluntary sector and often that's due to issues with childcare/ caring responsibilities falling to them so they need the flexibility the sector provides in comparison to other sectors. So demographically there's an expectation on men to earn more/ be the full time working parent etc and it would be tough to have two people in a couple working in the community sector now because of the col and lack of salary uplift and insecure funding climate. There's a real concern for future generations that this won't be seen as a positive career option unless you're looking for flexibility specifically.

Obviously that's tied in to the issues around why are women the ones doing the lions share with childcare and caring workload but it has to start somewhere and the social pattern we're working out of in terms of infrastructure is very female heavy. That will take a lot of time to phase out.

Actually, men should welcome a cohort of men who were socialised as women before transitioning. They’d probably get stuff done.

Wrong. The day you're talking about may claim to be international womens day but its really international anyone who identifies as a woman day (not as snappy though).
What id like is a day for women not men, not anyone who identifies as a women just for those of us who were born female.

What I want to know is when is International Wonen’s Day, huh?

It is the same as everything else though. VAWAG is no issue until it's "Pakistani grooming gangs targetting our women"

Or "men are victims of domestic violence too"

Or "more men commit suicide"

etc etc ad nauseam ad infinitum.

They don't care about anything or anyone - and if another group is getting attention or sympathy or empathy they have to try to make themselves victims.

Instead of: addressing VAWAG perpetrated by men
Instead of: setting up helplines and safe spaces for male victims
Instead of: encouraging their friends to talk, to set up organisations like CALM etc (AFAIK that was set up by a woman?)

etc etc etc

(disclaimer: not all men....)

The problem with IMD, men's groups, 'men are victims of domestic abuse too!' [yes but not violent abuse to the same extent as women], 'You've given the Women's Aid helpline but not the Men's Line!' etc etc etc is that it often feels like it's not being done in good faith.

It's not coming from a place of helping men grow and develop emotionally and get over the damaging stereotypes that result in disrespectful attitudes, and even violence, towards women. It often feels like a swatting aside of the facts about male violence in order to dismiss women and in particular those awful manhating feminazis women...

That's why I admire the White Ribbon group, they understand that toxic masculinity is toxic to men and boys, not just to women
...promoting healthy expressions of masculinity - allowing them to express themselves emotionally and eradicating limiting ideas of what it means to be a man.
We need you to be a part of creating a society where understanding and respect underpin all of our relationships and interactions, so all members of society can thrive.
Allyship: The key to real culture change — White Ribbon UK

and is his dad having these same thoughts? I mean it's great that as a boy-mum you are thinking these things and raising him right and all that.

But it is just more of the same ol' same ol' - women doing the thinking for men.

It’s ok - as others have said, men doing things for men is something feminists are entirely in favour of! But maybe not the best target audience.
dadsnet can be a bit tumbleweed, I’m not sure many people do know it’s there. If you want to engage with a wider audience on MN then Chat may be the best option. Better luck next year!

I've been quite shocked in the past by the 'why doesn't someone do something about this?' attitude from a fair number of men and no longer hesitate to say 'why don't you do it?'. It's not always been a sex-based thing as in they expect a woman to do it for them, though often it is precisely that.

It's always a joy to point out to the 'where's the IMD?' moaners that it does indeed exist on November 19th and nobody's stopping them from organising anything they want.