It was all a fever dream guys, don't know what you are all on about...<whistles and kicks floor>

Just plopping by to say that regardless of at what stage in their life a male (or female) human decides their personality is not aligned with their physical sex, and regardless of whether or not this feeling has a biological element, it is still not the same thing as actually being the opposite sex and still does not justify the TRA demand that female only language, protections and provisions be extended to male people on its basis.

So finding an undeniable biological cause for transgender idenities will still not mean some male people are actually female and vice versa, any more than knowing exactly how someone lost a leg means they actually have two legs.

The presence of structures, beliefs, feelings or preferences that society or science assumed to be exclusively female in the brains/minds of the physically male doesn't mean some male people are female, it means that society or science was wrong in assuming they were exclusively female.

Observing a black swan we logically conclude that some swans are black, not that some swans are crows.

ADHD is probably going that way, tbh.

It was actually mentioned in the linked article I mentioned as an example where people take what is meant to be, in the DSM, a kind of heuristic "diagnosis," and reify it to treat it as an objective thing in itself.

So perhaps we could hypothesise that categories like that are particularly prone to first being reified, but then becoming subjective self-declarations. Which is indeed an interesting trajectory.

Interesting. So it was claimed to be a medical condition which should have some sort of science based medical diagnosis but that isn’t convenient for the trans activists who actually don’t want there to be a medical diagnosis as that’s ‘gatekeeping’.

Essentially confirming that they want anyone and everyone to be able to self identify into this ‘condition’.

Imagine how it would sound if a medical diagnostic technique was called ‘gatekeeping’ that condition? ‘Gatekeeping’ cancer for example, or ADHD.

Oh yes I saw that - although she got shirty when someone assumed she was talking about young teens and claimed she meant the older ‘rangers’ - 17/18.

There seems to be an underlying thread of dishonesty coming from her. Not surprising really.

@TempestTost, I’m curious about how much of the reification of DSM conditions started from the American healthcare model, where in order to treat someone you have to have a medical code number to give their insurance company. I suspect it’s a tricky old knotty mess to untangle.

This is really interesting. I remember this kind of explanation in my psychology textbook back in the early 90s.

I think it's worth remembering that regular people were not just pulling this idea out of thin air, it was popularly distributed. I used to know a transwoman who medically transitioned back around 1980, so quite early on. It seemed to have been completely treated as a clear medical condition by the doctors. Looking back I think that this person probably suffered from AGP, or possibly was autistic, but that wasn't the message from the medical people involved. And even more than now, people then tended to accept what doctors said, you weren't going on the internet to look up other theories when you were just a regular person.

There is a very interesting link to an article/study on the reification of conditions in the DSM. It suggests to me that this isn't purely an issue with gender medicine, it's a wider problem in how disorders are being defined and understood.

There’s a nice summary of the “prenatal hormone pathway error” theory (which in turn is one of the explanations proposed for the supposed “brain-body mismatch” in trans people) here:

www.city-journal.org/article/transgender-medicine-biological-bias-gender-affirming

People like this would say the same about sexuality, and they think it's the same kind of thing in both cases, biologically, even genetically, determined.

But remember Whittle thinks it is all fine for girls to be having sex with scouts as she did when she went to camp.

On that note, that Sauna that got struggle sessioned for holding a women's only session now has women only sessions that include anyone that fancies using them.

'Women’s sessions welcome all who identify as women, including transgender women, as well as non-binary individuals who feel comfortable in women-only spaces'

https://beachboxspa.co.uk/dei-policy/

In the UK there has only been one reported problem with a situation where a trans woman, wished to enter a female sauna (it was just after the Gender Recognition Act 2004 which was why we heard about this)
She was pre-genital surgery. We were all very surprised, until it was acknowledged that she was in the middle of a serious psychotic episode.
A month later she was abject about what she had done.

Jesus. Just the one psychotic man invading a women's sauna, then. Hey ho.

Wow that’s an interesting thread.

The following stood out to me - Whittle was talking about Girl Guides 11-15:
All children and parents (including trans child plus parent) are then reminded (as they should always be reminded before any residential event) that:

1. Barrier/emergency contraception is carried by the leaders, and girls who request it, will not be told off, or considered wrong or bad, but:

and

In the UK there has only been one reported problem with a situation where a trans woman, wished to enter a female sauna (it was just after the Gender Recognition Act 2004 which was why we heard about this)
She was pre-genital surgery. We were all very surprised, until it was acknowledged that she was in the middle of a serious psychotic episode.
A month later she was abject about what she had done.

So Whittle and chums knew about a psychotic male who was using a female sauna but didn’t do anything about it?

IDK, in the context of 'trans' being a religious belief, it makes a sort of mad sense.

I was thinking that it is outrageous that Webberly claims a child has a trans identity from conception

From conception? That's even more insane than Diane Ehrensaft who believes that babies can be trans.

Yes, you're right. It's in this thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3212371-Where-are-all-the-trans-men-An-Answer

Quite. I guess when you remember that ‘gender affirming care’ = a potential $1 million of profit per patient across their lifetime, it makes more sense.

I’m sure plenty of research has been done into the background, funding and supporters of WPATH but all of their board members make a living from harming vulnerable people in the name of ‘trans’.

the specific ages would be removed to ensure greater access to care for more people

😶

Wasn’t it that she couldn’t remember her children’s friends’ names rather than the names of her actual children? If I’ve got this wrong, that’s truly mind boggling

I was thinking that it is outrageous that Webberly claims a child has a trans identity from conception, but then realised that WPATH have no lower age limits for trans healthcare. Apparently on direct instructions from the US gov.

Article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/25/health/transgender-minors-surgeries.html

Excerpt from WPAtH FAQs (pdf so can't link):

' A previous version of the WPATH Standards included specific ages for medical procedures. Why were those ages removed in the SOC-8? Minimum ages for providing gender-affirming medical care were removed from the SOC-8 and replaced by strengthened criteria to help codify the framework that enables every TGD adolescent the opportunity to get their appropriate medical needs met at the appropriate time; these changes to the SOC-8 reflect the fact that one-size-fits-all health care models, especially transgender care, are not accurate or appropriate for every individual person.

Prior to its September 2022 release, WPATH announced a public open comment period to the draft SOC-8 in December 2021 through January 2022. This comment period allowed input and feedback from professionals in the field from around the world who were concerned that the listing of ages would lead to further limitations to care by creating or reinforcing arbitrary boundaries to care and/or by ignoring possible contributing health factors including mental health, family support, or other individual health needs.

After comments were reviewed and discussed by chapter authors and co-chairs, it was determined that the specific ages would be removed to ensure greater access to care for more people. What do medical experts say about these standards of care? Every major U.S. medical and mental health organization, including the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the American Psychological Association, plus global health organizations including the Endocrine Society, the Pediatric Endocrine Society, the Society for Adolescent Health and Medicine, and the World Medical Association, and the World Health organization support access to age-appropriate, individualized gender-affirming care for youth and adults.'

I think her wife is the biological mother and she adopted them.

She has children?!?

Words fail me.

Whittle has admitted that she isn't an effective parent. She leaves the parenting to her wife and boasts that she can't even remember her children's names. She's a real man, you see.

That would be a terrible promise to make to.a child.

I think "I will do anything (reasonable and within my power) to keep you safe" is more common

Right, I've done the transcript of Webberly's interview.

It's right at the fucking end, of course.

'But when do you think transgender adults become transgender? Do you think it
happens at 18 or do you think it actually is their identity from within them from whenever they were conceived? '

I don't think it was Whittle who made the sturdy pyjamas comment. I think Whittle always posted under some variation of her real name, as in this thread that she started where she talked about having sex with a scout on a mixed sex scout/guide camp.

Where are all the trans men? An Answer. | Mumsnet

This is the sturdy pyjamas comment.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3314566-another-girlguiding-update