Reem Alsalem, UN Special Rapporteur on VAWAG is a fucking disgrace

Remarkable? The first time in human history, more like.

I don't doubt for one second that Palestinian women were raped because it is what Men as a class do in war/conflict/invasions/rebellions/any given day of the year that the opportunity presents itself.

For somebody then to have the temerity to say 'Oh, but were there independent witnesses? You can't prove rape without independent witnesses and (surviving) women to stand up and make themselves known to broadcast their intimate trauma, which would then be mocked, disbelieved, dismissed, told they didn't understand what had happened, it was just a fantasy - and you know what? Those types aren't trustworthy, they probably made it up anyhow or it serves them right' negates the entirety of female experience for political/ideological ends.

It is your deployment of distraction in order to deny, invalidate or minimise what happened on October 7th that is the issue and the offence, here.

Is she only referring to that? The tweet is dated today. The Dinah Report came out ages ago.

Deeply, deeply disappointing. And I saw Heather Brunskell-Evans say the same thing recently too - another strong voice against gender ideology & VAW, but who seems to have a blind spot when it comes to Israeli women.

I echo the poster who mentioned Shani Louk - I also saw Palestine with different eyes after seeing that. It was so deeply shocking that my opinion changed completely because of the October 7th attacks.

I also saw an Israeli pathologist interviewed who categorically saw evidence of rape and sexual torture on the bodies of women, and there is eye-witness evidence from survivors who saw women raped and murdered at the music festival. That is plenty enough evidence for me, although clearly not for the UN.

Hamas filmed themselves raping women and girls. They live streamed it then posted it again and again with glee.

But Jewish women apparently don't count. Their deaths don't count. Their rapes don't count/ Their murdered children don't count.

See it for what it is. Appalling and grotesque anti Semitism and violations.

And FFS. I never see a random Russian civilian being blamed for the murderous actions of Putin. Never see a Chinese civilian held responsible for what the Chinese government is doing to the Uyghurs.

Never see all Muslims being lumped in with the actions of Hamas. And Isis.

And nor should they be.

Why are Jewish people worldwide and Israelis being held responsible for the actions of the Netanyahu government for which they hold no responsibility and no agency over? To the point that Jewish deaths don't count. Jewish lives don't count. Jewish rapes don't count.

And these people who have lost their humanity so profoundly that they don't care about Jewish women and Jewish lives actually think they are on the right side of history. If you are among those who that way then you are a disgrace to humankind.

I note we haven't seen anyone deny the rapes of Sudanese women in the current conflict, or demand forensic proof, before finding their reports credible.

I think some people are so incapable of thinking that isn’t completely black and white, that they can’t get their heads round the fact that Israel has done appalling things to innocent people in Gaza, AND Hamas and their supporters have committed brutal and inhumane acts against innocent Israelis.
Other people are just dyed in the wool anti semites.
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume the former but increasingly it is impossible not to face the fact of the latter.

It's not that Hamas is different per se. The denial of these particular rapes is rooted in hatred of Israeli women. See the poster above claiming Israeli women are not credible because Israel is not credible. I've no idea why this thinking is so prevalent on mumsnet. I find it deeply, deeply concerning.

A significant number of Israeli women were murdered and their bodies burned. Some families were burned alive. It's quite hard to get forensic evidence of rape but we do know that there was mutilation of women and girls genitals and broken pelvises. Was it "only sexual assault" or necrophilia? Are they more palatable. Back in January 2024 even the Guardian accepted there was evidence of rape and also that in the response and chaotic situation forensic evidence was lost.

I remain unsure on why so many people are adamant that Hamas didn't carry out rapes. We know they murdered over 1200 people including babies and throwing grenades into groups of young people hiding in toilets as well as taking hostages including women and children. Why is it so outlandish to say that some Hamas fighters were also raping and sexually assaulted women and girls. We know this happens in conflict and disaster zones.

We know that Ukrainian women have been raped by Russians in the current conflict and that Isis enacted terrible sexual violence. We know that men will rape during wartime, we have not just this century but the last century, it happened in Rwanda and Syria and Bangladesh and Ethiopia and Bosnia and in Korea and China and Russia and Armenia and Vietnam. We have evidence it has happened in every war/invasion/conflict going back to Ancient Greece and Rome.

So why is Hamas apparently different to every other army or resistance or however you view them we know they killed over 1000 people but somehow rape is their moral red line?

It would be remarkable if rape had not occurred on that day. Rape has been used as a method of torture and a way of engendering fear since forever, so why would it not have happened then?

Perhaps you haven’t been on Mumsnet long enough to remember the We Believe You campaign.
It is not in the spirit of Mumsnet to discuss rape with the starting presumption women are lying.
This also applies to Jewish women.

Of course not everything is black and white. But when a socially regressive band of terrorists violently attack a group of civilians and there are accusations of rape, on balance of probabilities rape probably occurred.

And when an Arab whose job it is to protect women decides for some reason to make it a priority to publicly imply that the Jews are actually just lying about this, on balance of probabilities she is an appalling antisemite.

Yes. It didn’t need a great deal of consideration to see both the evidence of rape, and the enthusiastic cheering of the onlookers. I have struggled to be impartial since. That video was animalistic.

They probably deleted your post because it was rape denial. Or antisemitism. Just a wild guess.

I'll ask you again as you still haven't answered. Why does the fact that some Israelis have raped Palestinians make the women who say they were raped on 7 October not credible? What does one have to do with the other people? Separate people, separate crimes. Unless of course, you think the fact that some Israelis have raped means that other, unrelated Israeli women are lying. Is that what you think? Would you apply that to other nationalities or just Israelis?

And what standard of proof would you accept, seeing as you dont accept the Dinah report?

Hmm, I’m guessing you didn’t see any of the live-streaming? Then lucky you!

I don’t actually require the victims to relive their trauma to believe it. There was plenty of evidence of a level of sexual violence that I would not have believed among the bodies of the women who didn’t survive

I’m not sure why mumsnet decided to delete my response. It’s not offensive to question Israel’s claims when as I said there is nothing on the record to support the claims.

Unless you can provide statements, names and forensics it is fair for people to question Israel because as I said they’re not a credible source because of their own history.

Even in English criminal courts you’re allowed to used victim’s and witnesses previous convictions to cast doubt over their credibility so it’s not an alien concept.

As I said I am not saying it did or didn’t happen I am just pointing out a fact, there has been no independent investigation and no evidence forthcoming from witnesses. I am afraid ‘just because Israel says it happened’ isn’t good enough for the international community.

Why does whether or not some Israelis raped some Palestinians have any bearing at all on whether or not some Palestinians raped some Israelis? Your argument ( apart from being deeply offensive ) is completely illogical.

Do you think Hamas committed rape on October 7th? Or do you think only Israelis rape?

I cant believe you are dragging this up again.

As the UN representative she is referring to the fact that Netanyahu blocked the UN from investigating which is how in terms of the UN them make reports or whatever.

Since then, and we had a thread about is, so why do we have to go through this again, a report by the Dinah Project, set up by feminists in Israel has been accepted by the UN of evidence of sexual violence against women during the attack on 7 October.

I would respect more those who keep not understanding that if you are part of an organisation, UN or whatever, you work under their rules.

Why not make a fuss about Netanyahu caring so little for women that he prioritiesed his antagonism against the UN over the rights of Israeli women.

Why not, just for once, acknowledge the work of feminist who do more than sit at a keyboard, and recognised the month long work of Israeli feminists who compiled the report.

And if you are that bothered about the UN recognising this that or the other I do hope you are spending as much time monitoring their response to the rape of women in conflict areas in Africa and Asia.

Or is only some women you care about.

What the af is your point?

Because some Israelis have raped some Palestinians, no Israeli women were raped on October 7th? Is that your argument? Its not even logical is it? The one has absolutely no effect on the other.

If someone says, I was raped, do you say, 'well, I'm afraid I don't believe you because some of your neighbors have raped some other people at some point?' You might be accused of seeming not to give a shit, don't you think?

What standard of proof would you accept?

Do you personally believe Hamas didn't rape people on 7 October?

This is appalling. The first I knew of the 7 October massacre was Shani Louk's broken body (I hope to god she was already dead) being paraded on the back of a truck, with men spitting on her and the crowds cheering. That filled me with so much rage and disgust that I've never been able to see the Gaza issue in the same way since then.

Reem Alsalem was one of my heroes until now, for her refusal to stop defending women's rights. What a huge disappointment.

Patten and her team, tasked to gather, analyze, and verify information on conflict-related sexual violence (CRSV) from October 7 onwards, documented clear evidence of severe sexual acts such as rape, torture, and humiliation. Incidents of rape and gang rape occurred at several locations, notably the Nova music festival, Highway 232, and Kibbutz Re’im.
The team found a patten of victims, mostly women, who were partially or fully naked, their bodies shot and mutilated, across multiple locations.
While acknowledging the circumstantial nature of this evidence, the team concluded it indicates deliberate sexual violence, including sexually motivated torture and cruel treatment. The team was also convinced that this violence persists against the remaining hostages.

There are still no witness statements.
There are still no statements from victims.
There is no mention of forensics.

‘information’ and ‘circumstantial evidence’ which there is no mention of isn’t evidence.

For the record I’m not saying it happened or didn’t happen. I’m just pointing out that without Israel providing the admissible/reliable evidence to an independent investigator there will always be question marks on this.

She has done fantastic work regarding challenging gender ideology, which is no mean feat at the UN.

But unfortunately she has a huge blind spot so far as Israel/Gaza is concerned, which undermines the rest of her work.

She was roundly criticised for taking this stance back in the day and I had hoped she might have changed her position.

Disgusting.