HR tell trans identified person to use work toilets that match biological sex. Person refuses. Colleagues complain about their presence in incorrect toilets to HR. What's the legal position of all parties?

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Bloody well said Marie!!!!

Letting some 'special because trans' able-bodied people use the accessible toilet just because they prefer it is 'more practical and economical than adding a fourth type of loo everywhere'.
And even more practical and economical solution is for them to use the toilets designated for their sex.

How on earth did the expensive and disruptive idea of adding a fourth space everywhere catch on, when the number of transpeople is such a tiny percentage of the UK population? Maybe around quarter of a million out of 69 million.

By way of comparison, there are about 16 million disabled people in the UK - not all needing accessible toilets, obviously, but those who do need them, need them, it's not a matter of preference or validation, they don't use them by choice because they are 'uncomfortable' using the standard toilets.

There are no toilet police, so we just have to trust able-bodied people - including trans ones - to respect the spaces designated for disabled people.

A place I worked at had hand dryers with plugs with switches. We got an all users email telling us not to switch them on/ff because it was dangerous to with wet hands. Probably was with the ancient electrics in that building.

Joining you in the 'not the point but..' place - I don't think things like hand-dryers in toilets have plugs with on-off switches, I think they are permanently wired in. I think so anyway....

I know this is not the point but couldnt you just turn the hand-dryer off at the plug?

Yes, exactly.

A large part of the delusion is somehow they think they are convincing. Most trans identifying people, especially men can be spotted a mile off. Their height, build, the way they walk and move - their movements are due to biology as our pelvises and angles of joints are different. Unfortunately as most people (especially in the UK are reasonable and "live and let live" they take the silence of others as acceptance and that they are successfully passing rather than it being a polite social norm and fear that prevents them from saying what they really think.

If I use the same sex toilets, everyone will know I am trans and that would be a disaster.

This is a thing dthat has always baffled me. Out in public, you can tell it's a man in a dress 99.9% of the time so we all know he is trans.

I don't know how you would even attempt to hide it in a work situation.
Would Dave have a big leaving party on Friday but then come back as Davina on Monday when everyone has to pretend that Davina is a new female employee who can magically pick up all the work Dave left on Friday, or does Davina and everyone in the office have to go through a new employee process? Or, is it announced that Dave will be coming back as Davina on Monday and everyone is instructed to pretend he has always been a woman?

In both cases, how the fuck does anyone NOT know Dave is trans? Aside from the fact that Dave/Davina is likely to make being trans their whole personality...

I know that it is all about cognitive dissonance turned up to 11, but it is just beyond bonkers.

Well I have suggested mixed sex toilets with gaps around the top and bottom of the doors to transactivists. No one commented. My thoughts are that they would only be used by men. The accounts and blogs (mainly from America tbf) sugggest that women who want to be men don’t like this design. It would be a new regulated design for this country. When secondary schools have allowed mixing in single sex designs it’s been a disaster. WRN have got some good pictures to show what happens.

How does telling a man who wishes to be in with the women that he must use a mixed sex space solve any issue?

Surely inclusion matters. My local bookshop is for men and women, trans and not, black and white, straight and gay. So it should be. Everything should be for everyone, unless we have a specific reason for it not to be. We divide a lot of things by sex and / or age, for good reason. We have never divided things by gender because stereotypes are an arbitrary basis for categorization.

"Anyone whose need to dissociate from their birth sex stops them from going into the single sex space of their birth..."

A couple of the first things that came up on a google of "dissociate"....

Dissociation is a mental process where a person disconnects from their thoughts, feelings, memories or sense of identity. Dissociative disorders include dissociative amnesia, depersonalisation disorder and dissociative identity disorder.

Dissociation might be a way to cope with very stressful experiences. You might experience dissociation as a symptom of a mental health problem, for example post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or borderline personality disorder.

Yes, it is normal to dissociate, as it is a common human experience that can happen to anyone, especially during periods of stress, exhaustion, or trauma. Brief, mild dissociative episodes are not usually a cause for concern, but if dissociation is frequent, severe, or interferes with daily life, it may be a symptom of a mental health condition and a professional should be consulted.

Obviously we need to consider the needs of people who dissociate in one way or another, but surely the answer is much more about teaching resilience and providing good mental health support, and much less about changing society at huge cost in order that people who dissociate to the extent that it interferes with daily life are less affected?

Surely it is transphobic to build mixed sex toilets for trans people when we know trans people will be safer in single sex toilets?

So the Supreme Court can be overruled.

Therefore it is not the highest court in the land.

Can you give the name of a higher court?

I can't use the toilets at work. They are unisex toilets - sink in the stall, but crammed into a normal sized stall. There's no real way to use them without setting the hand dryer off, which is sensory hell to me. So I waste my lunch break driving back home to use the loo and hope I can make it through the afternoon without going again! I'm aware that most people don't have the same issues that I do - but ugh!!

Haven’t read the full thread.

But the problem with SOME men not being allowed to use the women’s toilets is that the toilets they are allowed to use don’t contain women.

It’s not really about the toilets. It’s about validation, forced participation, and what they see as the role of women in that.

Parliament can change the law, but cannot overrule the Supreme Court's interpretation of existing law.

My post was about the system that pertains here. I was explaining to a pp (among other things) that the SC is indeed the highest court in the land and Parliament is not a court and cannot simply "overrule" SC decisions. It has to pass new law.

So the Supreme Court can be overruled.

Therefore it is not the highest court in the land.

I gave up ignoring what things are called before I left primary school. I only go on what they do and how they act. It's got me this far in life.

The ambulant loo is another type already in place. They are single sex and can take some burden off accessible loos as they have hand rails, a shelf etc. They are a very useful addition.

The accessible toilets would still be available to disabled people who need them.

I think many workplaces would be able to absorb the additional accessible loo usage from trans or non-binary individuals, but if that's not the case, they could add more. This is surely more practical and economical than adding a fourth type of loo everywhere.

Yes, he’s very rude about women when they aren’t doing what he wants. Not very inclusive or kind.

He has posted on amother thread about how colleagues in a previous job raised complaints about him in the toilets, making them feel uncomfortable, so it seems to be a theme.