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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Brilliant Margaret Atwood memoir review

215 replies

hholiday · 14/11/2025 01:07

By Kathleen Stock https://archive.is/v2z51 and https://unherd.com/2025/11/what-margaret-atwood-got-wrong/

Just wonderful, humane writing that goes closer than anything else I have read to exploring the blind spots in Atwood’s views on gender, as well as expressing delight in her fiction writing. I particularly love these killer closing lines:

But honestly, the idea that, in the near future, Western governments will need to use direct force to make women do market-friendly things against their own interests is now surely, definitively preposterous. The case of genderism — and surrogacy, and “sex work”, for that matter — shows that authorities only need to persuade enough women that certain activities are kind, or glamorous, or nobly self-improving; at which point, tender-hearted armies will rise up to ruthlessly punish dissenters themselves.

What Margaret Atwood got wrong

https://unherd.com/2025/11/what-margaret-atwood-got-wrong/

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9
BlueEyedBogWitch · 14/11/2025 08:42

Howseitgoin · 14/11/2025 08:37

By this el bizarro logic we all need to pathologically obsess over Fred & Rose West being our neighbours…..🤪

Yes, because extreme cases like that of the Wests is the only deviant behaviour women have to worry about.

I’m out. You’re like a clockwork monkey, banging the same old drum in the same old rhythm, regardless of the tune that’s playing, Howse.

I might as well go to an underpass and argue with the graffiti.

PermanentTemporary · 14/11/2025 08:42

Oh dear, I’m a phrase emphasiser. I assure you it’s not AI.

PermanentTemporary · 14/11/2025 08:41

Presentation is in my view extremely culture-dependent. I’m amazed that anyone considers the act of wearing a skirt anything but culturally defined. Being in a culture which now insists wanting to wear a skirt is an actual sign of being a woman does make me understand more about the history of fashion, but it is CRAZY that modern humans are back to linking an item of clothing to something called womanhood which is supposed to be biologically linked. Paging Queen Victoria.

Howseitgoin · 14/11/2025 08:40

ArabellaSaurus · 14/11/2025 08:33

Ask your AI to stop emphasising key phrases. It's a dead giveaway.

Lol, If only I could write like AI….😂

What's with the AI obsession with GC's I wonder? Another avenue to express their penchant for conspiratorialism?

Howseitgoin · 14/11/2025 08:37

BlueEyedBogWitch · 14/11/2025 08:30

No, which is why creepy men in dresses want to get into women’s loos, prisons, fitting rooms and changing rooms.

Walking around in a frock in public just isn’t enough…

By this el bizarro logic we all need to pathologically obsess over Fred & Rose West being our neighbours…..🤪

DrJump · 14/11/2025 08:33

Howseitgoin · 14/11/2025 07:05

I'm just quoting the research which says it's comparatively safer for women so don't shoot the messenger.

Safer in the short term?

What about long term? The restriction it places on women post the prostitution? Absolute horseshit.

ArabellaSaurus · 14/11/2025 08:33

Howseitgoin · 14/11/2025 02:53

Interestingly, Stock's review says more about her view of women than Atwood's in that she clearly doesn't view them as autonomous beings…..when convenient. Desires that don't align with standard conservative views are "persuaded by authorities" rather than organically motivated. Women, it would appear are merely hapless programmable robots in Stock's world.

Where have we heard this before? Anti women's rights proponents have long been shouting from the rooftops how feminism 'persuaded' women to abandon their 'biological destiny' thus immiserating them & degrading society via its 'feminisation'. That feminism may have been an organic inclination rooted in the reality of gender interchangeability was totally lost on them.

That Stock attempts to falsely equate women's obvious coercion in sex work & surrogacy with gender non conformity tells you exactly what a bad faith operator she is.

I suppose the irony is totally lost on Stock mocking Atwood of all people for being clueless about women? My god, what a spectacular car crash that only a cultist wouldn't notice.

Edited

Ask your AI to stop emphasising key phrases. It's a dead giveaway.

Howseitgoin · 14/11/2025 08:32

DeanElderberry · 14/11/2025 08:24

'personality trait inclinations'?

Like Myers-Briggs you mean?

At least that gives us 16 boxes.

Stable characteristics that describe a person's patterns of thought, feeling, and behaviour aren't remotely controversial in psychology. That you equate psychology with horoscopes only betrays scientific illiteracy.

BlueEyedBogWitch · 14/11/2025 08:30

Howseitgoin · 14/11/2025 08:22

Except we don't walk around naked in public in modern times…

No, which is why creepy men in dresses want to get into women’s loos, prisons, fitting rooms and changing rooms.

Walking around in a frock in public just isn’t enough…

Coatsoff42 · 14/11/2025 08:28

Howseitgoin · 14/11/2025 08:21

The difference being whether there is an advantage in terms of harm reduction in doing so? Oversimplification isn't the win you think it is.

It is.

DeanElderberry · 14/11/2025 08:25

You might be better looking at horoscopes, lots of variables there.

truthsayers · 14/11/2025 08:24

on her facebook page Atwood posted that she was in Chicago. She says and I quote “I don’t have a pic of me in the Harry Potter store however”
Whatever could she mean.
The woman who wrote the Handmaids Tale. Unbelievable.

DeanElderberry · 14/11/2025 08:24

'personality trait inclinations'?

Like Myers-Briggs you mean?

At least that gives us 16 boxes.

Howseitgoin · 14/11/2025 08:24

TheHereticalOne · 14/11/2025 08:16

We don't distinguish sex, even in social situations, by how suggestible someone is, how 'kind' they feel they have to be, or in fact any personality traits.

The reason a disconnect between sex and expected behaviour (whatever that may be in a given society) is possible to even notice is precisely because those two things are separately observable.

"We don't distinguish sex, even in social situations, by how suggestible someone is, how 'kind' they feel they have to be, or in fact any personality traits."

Presentation is downstream from personality inclinations so we do in a sense rely on personality traits.

Howseitgoin · 14/11/2025 08:22

BlueEyedBogWitch · 14/11/2025 08:06

Gametal and chromosomal tests aren’t necessary to determine sex, because nature has handily provided a big old cock and balls.

Except we don't walk around naked in public in modern times…

Howseitgoin · 14/11/2025 08:21

Coatsoff42 · 14/11/2025 08:03

Yes, like burglary and domestic violence, let’s just make them all legal.

The difference being whether there is an advantage in terms of harm reduction in doing so? Oversimplification isn't the win you think it is.

GeneralPeter · 14/11/2025 08:20

Howseitgoin · 14/11/2025 06:55

I agree but it's a matter of the lesser of evils in terms of safety & exploitation. Ultimately the real solution is working towards societal economic security & prevention of other risk factors.

Unless those risk prevention measures inconvenience men.

Howseitgoin · 14/11/2025 08:18

DeanElderberry · 14/11/2025 08:03

'Gendered' behaviour is a form of full-body fancy dress.

Sex differences exist. Gender is fantasy.

Presentation is downstream from personality trait inclinations.

PermanentTemporary · 14/11/2025 08:17

The feminist view I grew up with that made most sense to me was that it was extremely difficult to know how much of women’s lives were influenced by their sex as opposed to their nurture, gender and culture, because of the overwhelming forces of the latter. Not that there was no influence of sex at all. And that external or internal judgment that a woman was ‘unsexed’ by being an outlier in terms of characteristics, sexuality or behaviour was misogyny designed to control, not that there wasn’t a more likely average of behaviour that was sex-influenced. And of course that women forcing gendered controls on other women was a feature noted in all oppressed groups, not a big or unique to women as a group. Women who arrange FGM (or in the past, foot binding) for their daughters are doing it a lot of the time because it is the route to marriage in their culture, which in many economies equals a route out of starvation or total dependency on/drudgery for your brothers if you have any, plus the route to some choice and value in the marriage market, not because they are due to their sex controlling bitches - I don’t think Stock allows for that. Read the early chapters of Wild Swans for that, and imagine having to crush your own small daughter’s feet for months on end because the alternative could be destitution, or indeed prostitution and an early death. Mixed in with this is the consequent priority given to ‘honour’ ie women’s visible chastity and ‘virtue’ having economic value, and an incredibly toxic mix of violence and control which women do indeed participate in. Read Pride and Prejuduce and Sense and Sensibility for the sanitised version of all that, if you look between the lines.

Brainworm · 14/11/2025 08:16

BlueEyedBogWitch · 14/11/2025 08:06

Gametal and chromosomal tests aren’t necessary to determine sex, because nature has handily provided a big old cock and balls.

Love it!

TheHereticalOne · 14/11/2025 08:16

Howseitgoin · 14/11/2025 07:53

"Observable patterns, trends or tendencies within exist within particular groups.
These do not equate to either necessary or sufficient conditions for membership of that group."

They do in terms of social categorisations tho. IE we don't use gametal or chromosomal tests to distinguish sex in social situations, rather typical associations.

Edited

We don't distinguish sex, even in social situations, by how suggestible someone is, how 'kind' they feel they have to be, or in fact any personality traits.

The reason a disconnect between sex and expected behaviour (whatever that may be in a given society) is possible to even notice is precisely because those two things are separately observable.

BlueEyedBogWitch · 14/11/2025 08:06

Howseitgoin · 14/11/2025 07:53

"Observable patterns, trends or tendencies within exist within particular groups.
These do not equate to either necessary or sufficient conditions for membership of that group."

They do in terms of social categorisations tho. IE we don't use gametal or chromosomal tests to distinguish sex in social situations, rather typical associations.

Edited

Gametal and chromosomal tests aren’t necessary to determine sex, because nature has handily provided a big old cock and balls.

Coatsoff42 · 14/11/2025 08:03

Howseitgoin · 14/11/2025 07:10

Oh stop lying. I never said it's a job that should exist. The reality is it exists regardless so it may as well be regulated for women's safety. Only the deluded think they can wish it away.

Yes, like burglary and domestic violence, let’s just make them all legal.

DeanElderberry · 14/11/2025 08:03

Howseitgoin · 14/11/2025 07:50

So hormones do influence gendered behaviour? You’re getting warmer!

'Gendered' behaviour is a form of full-body fancy dress.

Sex differences exist. Gender is fantasy.