Trans Liberation Group

Yep! There are plenty of men who would much prefer to go in the changing rooms where women are getting naked than the men’s, and some men who’d prefer to go in the changing rooms where children are getting naked rather than the men’s

Exactly!
I've encountered a man in a women's toilet who thought he could act on his "preference". I'm sure many of us here have.

Hence the law.

Yes I will also reiterate what the poster above me has said, that the supreme court did not change the law, it was clarified, therefore what Dr Upton did was wrong, but it was the whole of NHS Fife who were wrong in misinterpreting the law and allowing a male person to go into female changing rooms.

Yep! There are plenty of men who would much prefer to go in the changing rooms where women are getting naked than the men’s, and some men who’d prefer to go in the changing rooms where children are getting naked rather than the men’s

That is one of the reasons they’re not allowed 🙄

And for the benefit of any lurkers, the Supreme Court judgement, referred to above, clarified a law which has existed for years, it didn’t change anything

"Sex-based scenario: no-one has the choice."

Seriously?Please.

"Prison policy, for example, allowing trans-identifying people to choose which estate they entered but not permitting that to prisoners generally."

False. ALL prisoners are supposed to be subjected to risk assessment in housing. That some trans women are housed in women's estate is a function of them not being deemed a safety risk. That occasionally the prison system errs in implementing their safety policy is a management issue.

I think @Greyskybluesky was talking about the derailer Howse, not you @BlueLegume

I hope the keep toilets safe poster who has amazing knowledge and safeguarding advice about the reasons for single sex facilities sees this thread and clarifies the absolute nonsense being spouted by howse.

No no no not you!

The comprehension gap is with the resident derailer who has now appeared to deliberately derail debate on your very interesting thread.

Edited to add: ...this person is best ignored, but it's hard to do so when such imbecilic statements are made

I’d be surprised if she means you. We’ve been infested by a poster who craps nonsense all over threads. If you don’t know who that is then it’s not you!

"Cis people get their preference, trans people don't. That's discrimination based on gender."

No, "cis" people do not get their preference. Someone could be "cis" (your term, not mine) and prefer the toilets of the opposite sex. They're still not allowed to go in them.

...the moral panic that was created when women started objecting to being abused by men who had decided to aggressively colonise women only spaces?

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes springs to mind here.

@Howseitgoin
In the UK trans people don't have the right to use basic public utilities of their choice like everyone else

This is just false under whatever scenario.

Sex-based scenario: no-one has the choice.

Self-ID scenario: everyone has the choice.

The above is actually too generous to your position, because there is a third category which we might call “Self-ID for trans people only”. Prison policy, for example, allowing trans-identifying people to choose which estate they entered but not permitting that to prisoners generally.

There is no equivalent fourth category of cases where non-trans people get to choose their facility but trans people are banned from doing so. Let alone your claim that this is the situation generally.

You must be aware of this, surely, given how much you comment on these boards.

There is a major comprehension gap with this poster.

HUGE.

"I think what you are saying is that trans people don't have the right to use opposite sex toilets and changing rooms? That isn't the same as 'of their choice'.

Cis people get their preference, trans people don't. That's discrimination based on gender.

"It isn't creating a logistic nightmare if trans people just obey the law."

It is in terms of policing & catering to competing rights. Businesses have already raised their objections on policing & cost as have women who feel it undermines the rights of all women by subjecting them to potential scrutiny & harassment particularly if they are gender non conforming.

"If trans people want to campaign for additional third spaces I'm sure there would be a lot of support. It is a shame they didn't start off with this 10 years or more ago really."

There wasn't really any need to campaign before the moral panic….

In terms of targeting uni students, and concerns about them being vulnerable - back in the day, universities were hot beds of activism and many a comedy stereotyped the uni student as an ideological activist. I’m not concerned about their vulnerability to political activism.

With regard to vulnerable people being drawn to transitioning, I think this mostly comes from attaching themselves to the narrative that their emotional and psychological distress is caused by being ‘the wrong gender’ and that transitioning will help. I’m not sure on campus trans activism draws people in to transitioning, nor brings transition to their attention. I think social media does this.

Our resident derailer has joined the chat I see.

I'm trying to sit on my hands, but this is 100% garbage: "In the UK trans people don't have the right to use basic public utilities of their choice like everyone else". No one in the UK, trans or not, has the choice of which public facilities (i.e. toilets) to use. That has always been the case.

I’m guessing they want to be liberated from biology?

sometimes we all do innit?

anyone for a 40 and 50 something women’s liberation group? My first demand is that menopause related itchiness is made illegal at the first opportunity

Agree. We were told that 'rights aren't a pie', so there is no reason for single sex rights to be eroded.

If things are segregated by sex, surely that should be respected no matter what someone “identifies” as

@Howseitgoin In terms of trans people that varies depending on the jurisdiction. In the UK trans people don't have the right to use basic public utilities of their choice like everyone else however that is being legally tested & given the logistic nightmare its creating may well change.

I think what you are saying is that trans people don't have the right to use opposite sex toilets and changing rooms? That isn't the same as 'of their choice'. We have separate sex based facilities for various reasons as you well know. It isn't creating a logistic nightmare if trans people just obey the law.

If trans people want to campaign for additional third spaces I'm sure there would be a lot of support. It is a shame they didn't start off with this 10 years or more ago really.

To paraphrase Monty Python, Liberated from reality I reckon.

Thank you for responding.

You're welcome.

"It is nice to know you agree that trans people have the same rights as everyone else. perhaps you can tell that to the 'TRAs' who appear to be wanting more rights by ignoring sex based rights?"

In terms of trans people that varies depending on the jurisdiction. In the UK trans people don't have the right to use basic public utilities of their choice like everyone else however that is being legally tested & given the logistic nightmare its creating may well change.

"perhaps you can tell that to the 'TRAs' who appear to be wanting more rights by ignoring sex based rights?"

The same rights as in freedom of choice isn't the same as wanting more rights.

"Of course all sorts of people get discriminated against. That isn't however the same as rights."

There is a legal right to be protected from certain forms of discrimination in both national & human rights law.

"Quite happy to support people not being unfairly discriminated against. (Shall we start with the Darlington Nurses and Sandra Peggie who just wanted their single sex changing rooms?)"

The incidents alleged by Dr Upton happened before the UK Supreme Court ruled that a woman is defined by biological sex under equalities law.

Trans liberation group 😂

What do they need liberated from? Oh yeah, they want liberation from the law that says they have to stay out of women's single sex spaces etc well they can't have it!

Did they mean their name to sound so militant? I don't think it does them any favours, it brings to mind the insane arm the dolls shite with all it's woman beating overtones.

Thank you for responding.

It is nice to know you agree that trans people have the same rights as everyone else. perhaps you can tell that to the 'TRAs' who appear to be wanting more rights by ignoring sex based rights?

Of course all sorts of people get discriminated against. That isn't however the same as rights. Quite happy to support people not being unfairly discriminated against. (Shall we start with the Darlington Nurses and Sandra Peggie who just wanted their single sex changing rooms?)

I’ve given up engaging with that poster. His homophobia, misogyny, sexism and downright meanness towards women shine through.