Trans Liberation Group

These TRA groups inevitably fall apart due to internal power struggles and purity spirals so I give it about, ooohh, 25 minutes until Sultana is cancelled.

It's a bit like when kids write those wish lists like "no bed times", "no school" and "sweets for breakfast"

It’s why they love to hate us too, because they’re involved in an endless fight against women who want to stop them doing what they want. They’re the heroes in a good v evil struggle they’ve confected.

In a nutshell.

i came to this debate years ago, hoping to understand what it was that I was missing

Same here @Dragonasaurus. I've been looking for robust reasoning and solid arguments from trans supporters for about 10 years.
I used to be a bit #bekind. I couldn't see why an acquaintance of mine - a laid-back hippy type - was up in arms about a boy being included in girls' stuff at her daughter's school. I thought 'what's the harm?'
I set out to educate myself. And here I am.

These people are basically arguing that they have the right to do whatever they want, get whatever they want, change whatever they want.

Ultimately they are demanding the impossible. To me, that sums up the movement most accurately.

-Changing sex is impossible.
-Forcing other people to perceive you as something you are not is impossible.
-Forcing reality to bend itself around your whims and 'inner feelings' is impossible.

My supposition is that the impossibility of the goal is the point. It's a way of avoiding reality, because you are always occupied in the pursuit of an impossible goal. Because it's impossible, you will always be thwarted, and this feeds the story of how difficult your life is.

It's a very cruel story to sell children.

i came to this debate years ago, hoping to understand what it was that I was missing, how men could suddenly justify being in women-only sports, spaces & services. I read everything I could find that trans people had written, I spoke to transwomen in real life. Nobody has ever made a coherent argument to support their position.

#nodebate might be presented by Howse etc as people not being willing to discuss the existence of trans people (wtf?) but actually, it’s a genuine description of the strength if their argument. They have nothing beyond misogyny, homophobia and a desperate belief that they should have everything they want because they are men

Edited - pressed post too soon

@Howseitgoin "Wealthier, straight & white men/women are less likely to be discriminated against than poorer, queer men & women of colour."

Wealthier white men and women (particularly men) are less likely to face discrimination across the board, regardless of sexuality or anything else for that matter. Money talks and being white and male is always an advantage. Queer men and women from poor backgrounds or those of colour are largely discriminated against by their own communities.

This gem from Jaimie caught my eye:

so many of these so-called feminists who fought in these struggles decades ago

I could be charitable and assume that Jaimie is very young, but they do claim to work in tech.

Getting real vibes of that scene in Mars Attacks when Richie is talking to Grandma about the Martians, and all the crazy stuff she must have seen, and folks must have been pretty scared when they invented the train...

Does Jaimie think that we're all 140 year old suffragettes?

⬆
Yes, and you just know that this Jaimie, for example, has never read even a tiny bit of the SC judgment and wouldn't even know where to find it

This sums it up. The Supreme Court judgment is a mind bogglingly detailed analysis of the law. It painstakingly works its way through the legislation and assesses and weighs the various consequences of the interpretations put forward. In particular, it preserves the rights of women who are living as men.

I’ve yet to see anyone who criticises the judgment point to where it goes wrong. Probably because that would require a considerable amount of effort and thought.

Yes.

Linking into the relevant excerpt from the interview posted upthread by SionnachRuadh:

It’s basically, accusing us of sexual assault because you didn’t reveal your ‘true identity’ or whatever. The question becomes how far does that go? Does it apply when you kiss somebody in the club and then, like that, you, are sexually assaulting them because they thought you were a ‘woman’? This definitely feeds into legalising trans existence – it’s just trying to stop us being able to exist as normal human beings.

YES it is sexual assault!

It tallies with the emphasis on extreme, unfettered individualism.

'Ultimately it’s a fight for bodily autonomy, the whole of all of this, and it dovetails with, like classic feminist struggles of decriminalising abortion and access to contraception.It’s about being able to. I think it’s just a shame that so many of these so-called feminists who fought in these struggles decades ago just can’t see that.'

Bodily autonomy cannot come without caveats.

Those being, generally -

-Being old enough and sane enough to know what you are consenting to or asking for.
-Not affecting other people's bodily autonomy.
-Not expecting other people to pay for your aesthetic choices.

There’s a reoccurring theme with privacy. You will notice privacy is mentioned a lot by people including the Good Law Project.

With toilet design there’s a buzz word of ‘inclusive’ that isn’t defined in building standards. The common features are: mixed sex and private cubicle. They don’t have the floor to door gap that’s important for cleaning, ventilation, prevention of misuse (preventing sex, setting up cameras/take drugs/sell drugs/self harm/setting up home), and supervision in case the occupant is having an emergency (physical or mental health crisis including overdoses, sexual assault).

Ironically some ‘inclusive’ designs from America do have a gap over the door and partitions which is the one men use when standing on the toilet and peering over with their phones. Many in this country don’t have sinks within them which means they don’t conform to document T.

No mixed sex toilet design in legislation or building regulations is allowed any kind of door gap. Mixed sex design is less safe in absolute terms.

The irony is it vulnerable people who are more likely to suffer in ‘inclusive’ designs.

If people are worried about assaults, mental health, suicide, drug overdoses etc ‘inclusive designs’ are not the designs to chose.

Oh my gosh @SionnachRuadh that interview is quite the eye-opener!

For example:
[trans people have been] "often relying on laws to save us when now we can see the Supreme Court just decided to reinterpret that we basically don’t have the rights we thought we had"

They still don't get it.
The SC 'reinterpreted' nothing.
They don't have the rights they thought they had - because they were misled and lied to by organisations like Stonewall.
Literally none of them actually stopped for a moment to examine their position with regard to how the law stood and stands.

No one has free choice in the use of single sex spaces. They’ve to use gender neutral spaces or else the one that matches their biological sex. That’s not unique to trans people it’s everyone.

This is pretty batshit but sadly not quite in the league of that 2019 ish trans group who IIRC wanted the right to perform surgery on each other. I fear those peaks of entertaining madness will never be scaled again

this one is pretty good

• Introduce a new law abolishing all kinds of “trans panic” legal defences. Legally enshrine the right to not have to disclose your assigned gender at birth or trans status to potential sexual partners and reverse all convictions made of trans people on the basis of “deception” for not disclosing their trans status.

demanding the right to sex by deception 👌

keep telling us who you are fellas

Anyway, to get back to the actual subject, this interview with the TLG is wild:
Trans Liberation Group | Prometheus

I particularly noticed this bit:

Finally, the amending of the Equality Act so that it actually makes clear like sex refers to a person’s lived experience and making gender identity a protected characteristic. But another thing that we want is to amend the Equality Act so ‘gender critical’ beliefs cannot be treated as protected beliefs. We want to make it so that they can’t be treated like that, because it’s ridiculous. It’s like saying being a Nazi is a protected belief. It’s ridiculous.

HH – I guess with the Equality Act, the protected beliefs for transphobia becomes a major problem when you look at the class politics in Britain. You have an upper class movement of transphobes that use their resources through strategic litigation, right, in the same way Zionists do as well.

J – There’s a lot of overlap between Zionists and transphobes, and absolutely there is this intentional use of litigation.

there’s a woeful naïveté, an immaturity about this politician.

One can imagine every thread having a wee MRA plopper as a sort of anti-mascot.

"As one of my earlier posts stated I am gender critical. I do not believe anyone can change sex but I am adult enough to appreciate some people feel they need to present as the opposite sex. That is fine - just appreciate my space as my space and respect that as a biological female I want privacy away from men, however they present."

As do trans women.

Transwomen are not able to have privacy away from men - everywhere they go they take a man with them...

Also, there are certain things it is reasonable to expect of society or even demand in some cases - but demanding the impossible is probably over that boundary... It doesn't matter what is said / how eloquent or logical the discussion (and sadly it is rarely that!) underlying it all - a man is a man. So a transwoman is simply a man in a frock with or without bodily mutilation... To make decisions therefore, it is completely reasonable to consider them as men, because they are - we don't need to sub-categorise men - it would be as logical as loos for blond men or loos for those who are left-handed, or loos for those below 5'5" - in fact the latter might be more logical - you could have lower urinals!

As a transwoman can never be anything other than a man - so they ready have their own space with other men - if they don't like that, tough, society can not be expected to deal with every like and dislike... provision of a space for blokes and a space for women is sufficient - alternative toilets for the disabled who have special requirements is absolutely a reasonable adaptation - special loos and spaces for men who want to pretend to be women - absolute nonsense!

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"Trans women are men. I am allowed to have that opinion. It does not make me transphobic."

No one is suggesting stating trans women are biologically 'male' is transphobia. What's transphobic in the true sense of 'a phobia' is an irrational fear of them.

Hurrah - about the most logical thing I have read from this poster - absolutely correct in the meaning of phobia... now take the English lesson that little bit further - transphobia would be fear of trans - as it is biologically impossible for anyone to transition, and as we know from repeated postings on here, you can't even transition gender (you simply expand the definition of your own gender), therefore there is fundamentally no such thing as trans - it is not possible.

ergo - not possible to be transphobic...