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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender women to be banned from all female Olympic events

383 replies

Misla · 10/11/2025 11:54

About time!!

IOC likely to announce new policy early in new year after findings of a scientific review about the permanent physical advantages of being born male

The International Olympic Committee is set to announce a ban on transgender women in female competition early next year after a science-based review of evidence about permanent physical advantages of being born male.

The IOC’s guidance to Olympic sports has until now been that transgender women can compete with reduced testosterone levels but leaves it up to individual sports to decide. That is now set to change under its new president, Kirsty Coventry, who has promised to protect the female category.

The committee’s medical and scientific director, Dr Jane Thornton, last week presented to IOC members at a meeting in Lausanne the initial findings of a science-based review into the issues of transgender athletes and athletes with differences of sexual development (DSD) competing in female sport.

Free-to-read link: https://archive.is/kGpyI

Transgender women to be banned from all female Olympic events

Transgender women to be banned from all female Olympic events

IOC likely to announce new policy early in new year after findings of a scientific review about the permanent physical advantages of being born male

https://www.thetimes.com/sport/olympics/article/olympic-ioc-transgender-athlete-ban-womens-sports-zhlpfll3b

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/11/2025 14:55

Arran2024 · 10/11/2025 17:31

When isn’t she 😂

centaury · 11/11/2025 14:39

Misla · 11/11/2025 14:24

Yes, sorry! Was getting them mixed up. For sure Semenya has fathered children. With his actually female wife.

I'm not sure this is true - it seems to be one of those things that has spread like wildfire on social media but is only a possibility, not a certainty. He has IVF-created children. Some men with 5-ard can father children with the aid of reproductive technologies, but not all. They may have been fathered by a donor. I'm not in the camp that says talking about this is off-limits (I think if he has fathered children it has relevance to his participation in female sport and to the appropriateness of people saying he "lives as" a woman.) But it is probably a bit unkind to make claims about his family and potential sterility when there is no confirmation.

Helleofabore · 11/11/2025 14:31

There is also this:

Trans girls grow tall: adult height may be unaffected by GnRH analogue and estradiol treatment. This is still an advantage that these males continue to have despite ‘puberty blockers’. I think this is where future studies will start to focus on these cases.

Lidewij Sophia Boogers, Chantal Maria Wiepjes, Daniel Tatting Klink, Ilse Hellinga, Adrianus Sarinus Paulus van Trotsenburg, Martin den Heijer,
Sabine Elisabeth Hannema

published: 06 June 2022

academic.oup.com/jcem/advance-article/doi/10.1210/clinem/dgac349/6603101

Helleofabore · 11/11/2025 14:29

There was also this from Dr Emma Hilton about height with charts and graphics:

https://x.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1856720482583638038?s=20

Twitter 13th November 2024

Why male advantage in sport is not a social construct: height. Height is a key difference between males and females. What is nature v nurture? What does that mean for sport?

Bigger skeletons are most obviously driven by longer bone growth. Key bones like those in your thigh (“long bones”) grow from their end to get longer, making you taller.

The site of bone lengthening is called the “epiphyseal plate” or “growth plate”. Here, cells divide/enlarge, making new tissue that pushes the bone ends apart. This tissue calcifies and is replaced by bone, leading to lengthwise growth.

Height is very heritable - tall parents beget tall offspring - and “polygenic” - there are tons of genetic sequences that affect whether you are generally tall, average or short.

Some people carry genetic sequences that make their growth plates very active, meaning they will be generally taller. Others have lazy growth plates, making less new bone and limiting height. Lots of molecular stuff going on at these bone sites!

Height is also affected by environment. You need minerals like calcium to make new bone, so diet is important. Nutritional deficiencies and childhood disease can negatively affect bone growth.

Whether you inherit “tall genes”, “medium genes” or “short genes”, or however your particular combination averages out, is not a social construct. Importantly, both males and females are equally at the mercy of their height genes. When populations can access such things (economic investment, emigration, etc), average heights increase amongst both males and females.

But there is a third key input to height, and that is your sex. That is, when you compare males and females from the same demographic (same ethnicity/genetic pool, same socioeconomics), the males are alway taller. This is not a coincidence.

How does sex affect height? Let’s go back to those bone growth plates. When they are “open”, your bones are growing. This happens throughout childhood, and ramps up massively during puberty.

During puberty, growth plates activity increases under the control of hormones like growth factor hormones and sex hormones. Both estrogens in girls and testosterone in boys stimulate new bone growth. Now here’s the rub. Bone growth (and getting taller) stops when the growth plate “closes” (“epiphyseal closure”), and this is largely driven by only estrogens.

So what’s happening in girls? Well, around 10 yrs old, her body starts pumping out estrogen and she starts her growth spurt. A few years later, that estrogen closes down her growth plates and she stops growing. Females reach adult height around 14-15 yrs old.

https://t.co/enOE44e7pl

And compared to boys? Boys don’t enter puberty until a couple of years after girls. In those couple of years, they are growing in “childhood mode” - this is a couple of extra years that girls don’t get, and underpins a lot of the sex difference in height.

Then their testosterone kicks in, activating their growth plates and up they shoot (just like their female classmates did a couple of years ago). At around 16-18 yrs old, they convert enough of their testosterone to estrogens and their growth plates close, capping their height.

These differential growth trajectories between boys and girls are linked to sex. They are linked to the sex hormones made by the testes and ovaries, the interplay between these sex hormones, and how and when those sex hormones drive pubertal growth.

Even if a girl has inherited “tall genes” and drinks a ton of milk, her sex has an effect on her adult height. Even if a boy has inherited “short genes” and hates dairy, his sex has an effect on his adult height.

The effect of sex on your adult height is an outcome of your reproductive biology and the hormones associated with that reproductive biology. This is not a social construct, it is basic endocrinology.

And that’s what male sports advantage is - the acquisition of a physical trait that aids sports performance because one is male. Being male doesn’t mean you will be tall, it means you will be taller than if you had been female.

A follow up Q. The role of a Y chromosome gene in height is disputed. There is a sex chromosome gene (on both Xs and Ys) called SHOX, that is undeniably involved in height, in the sense that mutations cause bone growth disorders and short stature conditions. The possession of only one working copy has been proposed to underpin short stature in Turner syndrome.

However, typical height patterns in various DSDs can be explained by the hormonal interactions I describe above.

For example, Klinefelter males are unusually tall and have 3 SHOX copies. However, they also usually have low T, which delays puberty (longer childhood growth window) and delays the accumulation of sufficient estrogens to cap growth. Klinefelter males continue to grow long after other males have stopped (perhaps 20 yrs old).

In CAIS/Swyer, there is no T signalling and (usually) an absence of normally-timed estrogen supplementation. This delays puberty and lengthens the childhood growth window. Timing of diagnosis and estrogen supplementation will usually occur later than female growth is capped. So they are taller than female peers.

It's not a closed case, but I'm increasingly persuaded that hormonal milieu has sufficient explanatory power in most cases. The strongest counter is XX males, who are typically shorter than healthy males, but with the same T profile as Klinefelter males, so why aren't they also unusually tall?

Emma Hilton (@FondOfBeetles) on X

Why male advantage in sport is not a social construct: height. Height is a key difference between males and females. What is nature v nurture? What does that mean for sport?

https://x.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1856720482583638038?s=20

RoamingToaster · 11/11/2025 14:26

Obviously puberty is important but there are differences in males and females well before then. Baby boys and girls have different growth charts for a reason. Boys are bigger. Baby boys also get a "mini puberty" a few months after birth where testosterone rises. So be careful when people tell you the boys and girls have a similar level when they're 5 or something as it's not looking at the full picture. These early differences have an effect going forward in a boy's life.

Helleofabore · 11/11/2025 14:25

What is interesting is that those who have an interest in protecting women's sports are already noting evidence about male bodies that may be unaffected by suppression of puberty.

Interesting research and important when discussing inclusion of male athletes who have not experienced male puberty / androgenisation in female sports.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.70155

When and Why Do Sex Differences in Handgrip Strength Emerge? Age-Varying Effects of Testosterone From Childhood to Older Adulthood

Jun Seob Song, Heontae Kim, Myungjin Jung

First published: 06 October 2025

ABSTRACT

Objectives : On average, males are stronger than females, with hormonal changes during puberty often cited as a contributing factor to this advantage. However, not all evidence consistently supports this explanation. The purpose of this study was to determine (1) when sex differences in handgrip strength and testosterone emerge, and (2) whether testosterone mediates the sex difference in handgrip strength and if this effect varies across age.

Methods : Time-varying effect modeling (TVEM) was used to examine age-specific trajectories of handgrip strength and testosterone, and to assess whether these trajectories differed by sex. A moderated mediation analysis was conducted to test whether the sex difference in handgrip strength was mediated by testosterone level, and whether this effect varied across age. Data were drawn from the 2011–2012 and 2013–2014 cycles (N = 11,035) of the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey.

Results : TVEM indicated that the sex difference in handgrip strength emerged at age 8, whereas the sex difference in testosterone level became evident at age 10. A moderated mediation analysis revealed that testosterone mediated the association between sex and handgrip strength, and this effect decreased with age (IMM = −0.18, 95% CI: −0.20, −0.16).

Conclusion : Sex difference in handgrip strength appears to be driven, in part, by the testosterone levels. However, this difference can be observed even before the onset of puberty, which suggests that testosterone alone does not fully explain the sex difference in muscle strength. This finding may have important implications for decisions regarding inclusivity and fairness in sports that emphasize strength.

Misla · 11/11/2025 14:24

Helleofabore · 11/11/2025 14:18

I don't believe that Khelif has fathered children. Are you referring to the possibility that Semenya has? That is, of course, a possibility and has not been confirmed.

Yes, sorry! Was getting them mixed up. For sure Semenya has fathered children. With his actually female wife.

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Helleofabore · 11/11/2025 14:18

Misla · 11/11/2025 13:02

Interesting. Things that wouldn't have been written even a year ago. Let's also remember that Imane has fathered children with his male sperm!

I don't believe that Khelif has fathered children. Are you referring to the possibility that Semenya has? That is, of course, a possibility and has not been confirmed.

lechiffre55 · 11/11/2025 14:10

Misla · 11/11/2025 14:09

Either you are being obtuse, or disingenuous. I have no problems with Musk. Why would I?

Well then what's your point?
What about my comment set you off?

Misla · 11/11/2025 14:09

Either you are being obtuse, or disingenuous. I have no problems with Musk. Why would I?

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lechiffre55 · 11/11/2025 14:07

@Misla
My point in commenting on Wu's reply being right under Musk's reply is that Webberly's post is getting huge attention far and wide.

You and @MyObservations have been having a lovely little chat on this thread. I called it out. And now here we are.
Yes we had a chat. We discussed a mistunderstanding and resolved it amicably like adults. We also shut up about it upon resolution.

You ask a second time what my point was in a very passive agressive way. Methinks you have some issues with Musk and are projecting. I have no issues with Musk. Without Musk women wouldn't be able to speak up for their rights on Twatter.

Before the steam coming out of ear ears makes a high pitch whilstling sound like a very small kettle consider this.
Wu who is on the opposite side of the GC debate was noted as having commented on Webberly's tweet. It was relevant becuase Wu opposed what Webberly was doing. Bringing attention to Wu's post was not an issue presumably because it was vaguely aligned to the GC view on Webberly even if we don't align with Wu. A comment about Musk can also be made without having to agree with Musk. It is not an endorsement. It was a huge example showing the widespread traction Webberly's post is getting, and all negative feedback.
You deal with your Musk issues yourself and don't try and project them onto others. Kettle's boiled, maybe make yourself a nice soothing cup of tea?

Misla · 11/11/2025 13:53

lechiffre55 · 11/11/2025 13:48

@WallaceinAnderland

Did you see Brianna Wu's reply? - right under Elon Musk's.

What is your point?

You and @MyObservations have been having a lovely little chat on this thread. I called it out. And now here we are.

So, what is your point with that reply?

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Arran2024 · 11/11/2025 13:50

BundleBoogie · 11/11/2025 13:11

Yes. This was what I objected to:

MyObservations · Yesterday 14:36
In part because of the fake information that was being out around. The simple fact is that if someone has gender reassignment before puberty, they take on the strengths and weaknesses of their new gender. If they have gender reassignment after puberty, they take with them the strengths and weaknesses of their former gender.

But it's not just about the effects of puberty. I think we've been round this block before so no point in us doing it again, but I can't let your claim stand uncontested.

Even male socialisation is a key benefit, even in something like darts, where the parents buy their son a mini dartboard for Xmas and encourage his skills, while buying their daughter barbies.

There he goes, into the girls' category, based on stopping male puberty, but armed with social advantage he can never shake off because it is ingrained. Meanwhile the girls who persisted in the face of parental disinterest are up against him.

Just no.

lechiffre55 · 11/11/2025 13:48

@WallaceinAnderland

Did you see Brianna Wu's reply? - right under Elon Musk's.

WallaceinAnderland · 11/11/2025 13:42

Arran2024 · 10/11/2025 17:31

Did you see Brianna Wu's reply?

'Helen, real talk. I wish I’d had help as a child, but I didn’t. It traumatized me, and I went through male puberty. I might have a 19 BMI, but I’m still 6 foot two. I absolutely hate it, but it would not be fair for me to compete against normal women in basketball or volleyball. We have to focus on the policies that make our lives better and not the compromises that make the public hate us. I know you mean well but you’re just not helping us.'

When even your own side thinks you're damaging their cause.

WearyAuldWumman · 11/11/2025 13:39

A castrated boy might be able to grow breasts via hormones, but he will never contend with periods and I think I’m right in saying that his height might be affected, but his pelvis etc won’t change.

He really won’t have the same strengths and weaknesses as a girl.

Talltreesbythelake · 11/11/2025 13:33

BundleBoogie · 11/11/2025 13:17

It was this previous post that I objected to, subsequent smart remarks didn’t do anything to clarify that incorrect view until this linger more detailed post thing I largely agree with. It’s like it’s come from a different poster.

MyObservations · Yesterday 14:36
In part because of the fake information that was being out around. The simple fact is that if someone has gender reassignment before puberty, they take on the strengths and weaknesses of their new gender. If they have gender reassignment after puberty, they take with them the strengths and weaknesses of their former gender.

Not really true, though. A male child will be weakened, unable to grow into their genetic potential. A female child will also be damaged. Perhaps stronger than their female cohort but how long will that last? Will they keep their health or will osteoporosis set in early due to low oestrogen levels? There are lots of health drawbacks that a lovely beard and biceps doesn't protect them from.

Misla · 11/11/2025 13:27

BundleBoogie · 11/11/2025 13:25

Yes, I was trying to respond to separate PPs questions in this but on reflection I could just gave tagged them in one reply - need more coffee.

I’m glad @MyObservations does agree though and the previous posting was just a misunderstanding.

☕

Black Coffee GIF
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BundleBoogie · 11/11/2025 13:25

Misla · 11/11/2025 13:19

Alright @BundleBoogie, we heard you the first three times 😆

Yes, I was trying to respond to separate PPs questions in this but on reflection I could just gave tagged them in one reply - need more coffee.

I’m glad @MyObservations does agree though and the previous posting was just a misunderstanding.

Misla · 11/11/2025 13:19

Alright @BundleBoogie, we heard you the first three times 😆

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BundleBoogie · 11/11/2025 13:17

lechiffre55 · 11/11/2025 11:35

@MyObservations
Agree with your last post, not even little bits to nit pick.
Are you able to tell me why you're getting a negative reaction here? It is misunderstanding, or some other views or posts I've not seen?
I am aware in general it's possible to be in agreement with someone and still get into an argument through misunderstanding.
Curious why you are getting a lot of negative feedback. Mumsnetters usually have a very reliable bull detector.
I can't see bad faith in the very few posts of yours that I have seen. To me there's some kind of disconnect going on here.

It was this previous post that I objected to, subsequent smart remarks didn’t do anything to clarify that incorrect view until this linger more detailed post thing I largely agree with. It’s like it’s come from a different poster.

MyObservations · Yesterday 14:36
In part because of the fake information that was being out around. The simple fact is that if someone has gender reassignment before puberty, they take on the strengths and weaknesses of their new gender. If they have gender reassignment after puberty, they take with them the strengths and weaknesses of their former gender.

SJone0101 · 11/11/2025 13:16

Misla · 10/11/2025 12:06

And happily, it looks like they're coming for Imane as well:

The new policy is also likely to cover DSD (differences of sex development) athletes — those who were raised as girls from birth but have male chromosomes and male levels of testosterone.

That follows the huge controversy at the boxing tournament at the Paris 2024 Olympics when two boxers, Imane Khelif from Algeria and Taiwan’s Lin Yu-Ting, won gold medals despite having been disqualified from the previous year’s World Championships for allegedly failing to meet gender eligibility criteria.

World Boxing, the new international boxing federation which has been recognised by the IOC since Paris, has now introduced mandatory sex testing and has said Khelif will not be able to compete in the female category until she undergoes the test.

I wonder why Imane doesn't want to take the test? It's a mystery 🤔

A total mystery indeed.

BundleBoogie · 11/11/2025 13:14

MyObservations · 11/11/2025 11:43

Thanks. I suspect it's because I tried to explain some of the background and the pre v post puberty thing. For some, I think they probably misunderstood. However, it seems to me that confrontation is almost the norm on MN and if one isn't obviously supporting the proposition, one must be against it. Rational and reasonable discussion is a rarety in my experience, and abuse is commonplace. Sad really .....

This is what you said.

Can you explain what I misunderstood please?

MyObservations · Yesterday 14:36
In part because of the fake information that was being out around. The simple fact is that if someone has gender reassignment before puberty, they take on the strengths and weaknesses of their new gender. If they have gender reassignment after puberty, they take with them the strengths and weaknesses of their former gender.

BundleBoogie · 11/11/2025 13:12

borntobequiet · 11/11/2025 11:39

The poster said that gender reassignment surgery was sex change surgery (or words to that effect), implying they thought that people can change sex. Other posters took issue with this. The poster didn’t realise that others on here understand the issue as well as or better than they do, and didn’t understand the disagreement/criticism.

Yes. This was what I objected to:

MyObservations · Yesterday 14:36
In part because of the fake information that was being out around. The simple fact is that if someone has gender reassignment before puberty, they take on the strengths and weaknesses of their new gender. If they have gender reassignment after puberty, they take with them the strengths and weaknesses of their former gender.

BundleBoogie · 11/11/2025 13:11

ErrolTheDragon · 11/11/2025 11:36

I think it’s because of what you said about prepubertal ‘gender reassignment’.

But that’s child abuse, not legal in the U.K. and hopefully other countries will stop allowing children to be physically damaged rather than treating any mental distress.

Edited

Yes. This was what I objected to:

MyObservations · Yesterday 14:36
In part because of the fake information that was being out around. The simple fact is that if someone has gender reassignment before puberty, they take on the strengths and weaknesses of their new gender. If they have gender reassignment after puberty, they take with them the strengths and weaknesses of their former gender.

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