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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Criticism of Islam is a protected belief

439 replies

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 09/11/2025 21:32

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15272771/Criticism-Islam-ruled-legally-protected-belief-man-banned-fined-thousands-pounds-social-media-posts.html

I wasn't able to find the judgment. There'll be a hearing in February but it's not clear to me whether claimant's beliefs have already been tested for Grainger compliance. Either way, the tribunal will (also) have to address objectionable manifestation (Bananarama doctrine).

I've raised it here because of the parallels with Forstater. It's a constant refrain of TRAs that permitting Forstater belief is tantamount to attacking GR as a protected characteristic. They do not understand secularism (or the SC ruling).

Of course the situation is not the same insofar as Islam has not been written into our law and Muslims don't expect the rest of us to follow its rules.

Article 9, anyone?

Criticism of Islam can be a legally protected belief, judge rules

Patrick Lee is pursuing a belief discrimination claim against the Institute and Faculty of Actuaries (IFoA) after it banned him and fined him nearly £23,000 last year over a series of tweets criticising Islam.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15272771/Criticism-Islam-ruled-legally-protected-belief-man-banned-fined-thousands-pounds-social-media-posts.html

OP posts:
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12
JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 19:37

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2025 19:32

It was you who made the initial point. You were trying to make out that the only moral imperative about abortion must come from a big man in the sky. I suggest that humans have an innate moral instinct, and that the body has its own wisdom. Perhaps yours doesn't?

Edited

You said:

"No, just by the awareness that after a certain point a foetus becomes a baby and that taking a life is an act which has moral weight."

That speaks of all pregnancies.

DeanElderberry · 11/11/2025 19:35

inkognitha · 11/11/2025 18:50

The UK is a theocracy, shuuuuure 😂
No mention of the Vatican though??
For someone so erudite and such a stickler for details and precision, I am surprised at the oversight, but finding colonialism and offense in everything must take a fair amount of your time and brainpower, you give a good show though

You could include the Vatican, though its population is less than 1,000.

But the UK, yes. Bishops sit by right in the House of Lords, there is a State church, and your King (an hereditary monarch, who succeeded his mother and will be succeeded by his son) is the head of that church. Nowhere else does that.

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2025 19:32

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 19:29

No, because they are your pregnancies. Do you have an alternative view of my pregnancies? Or her pregnancies? Or hers?

It was you who made the initial point. You were trying to make out that the only moral imperative about abortion must come from a big man in the sky. I suggest that humans have an innate moral instinct, and that the body has its own wisdom. Perhaps yours doesn't?

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 19:29

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2025 19:27

It most definitely is. Do you have an alternative perspective on my pregnancies?

No, because they are your pregnancies. Do you have an alternative view of my pregnancies? Or her pregnancies? Or hers?

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 19:28

WarriorN · 11/11/2025 19:14

From my experience and in my opinion criticism of a religion, or any ideology, occurs when there is clear evidence of harm linked to some aspect of the faith.

Religions that don’t have much aspect of harm within them don’t receive criticism.

And in many religions, Islam in particular, there’s an overlap between cultural practices and what is part of the religion for specific historical reasons. I’ve been reading up recently about the burka for example and it’s a cultural tradition stemming from certain areas of the Islamic world. And other Islamic cultures and traditions and scholars do not subscribe to it, some even eschewing head coverings for women.

I found it very interesting to read about when France introduced the veil ban - it was slowly over a couple of decades, initially working with parents.

the impact was measurable in that Muslim girls began achieving more academically and in future careers, without it.

so it should be considered appropriate to politely and respectfully criticise such a practice, have the debates etc.

obviously this is more clear cut for fgm (and it’s important to note that fgm also occurred in Victorian western Christian cult for a while). I also have issues with circumcision, though obviously it can be a medical procedure that has to happen in later life for some teen boys.

Hinduism, Sikhism and Buddhism attract much less criticism. Obviously Judaism is very varied in the way it is practiced.

trans ideology wouldn’t be an issue if it wasn’t phenomenally harmful from all angles.

"Religions that don’t have much aspect of harm within them don’t receive criticism."

Name some.

"the impact was measurable in that Muslim girls began achieving more academically and in future careers, without it."

Was that because teachers and students treated them better?

"Obviously Judaism is very varied in the way it is practiced."

And Islam isn't?

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2025 19:27

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 19:26

That's your view of your pregnancies.

It most definitely is. Do you have an alternative perspective on my pregnancies?

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 19:26

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2025 19:12

No, just by the awareness that after a certain point a foetus becomes a baby and that taking a life is an act which has moral weight.

I've had terminations and have certainly felt that as a heavy burden - even in the early stages of pregnancy. As a woman, you are not separate to the life growing inside of you, and the instincts to feed and to nurture can kick in very early. To seek to terminate/kill and yet feel the opposite urge at the same time is certainly a moral quandry.

This has got nothing to do with organised religion, but more the wisdom of one's own soul/spirit and the profound instinct of one's own body.

That's your view of your pregnancies.

GarlicHound · 11/11/2025 19:22

inkognitha · 11/11/2025 13:38

@Swiftasthewind

around 600 BC: 1st tribal king in the British Isles to be baptised
around 610 BC: Muhammad is supposed to have received his first revelation

Facts...

BC means Before Christ.
BCE: Before Common Era.

No king was baptised and no prophets of Islam occurred before Christ was allegedly born!

AD: Anno Domini (Year of our lord)

The first archaeological evidence and credible records showing a community large enough to maintain churches and bishops date to the 3rd and 4th centuries AD.

610 AD is 7th century.

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2025 19:20

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 18:02

You might call it child marriage....Or just marriage

We call it 'child marriage' because we have a concept of moral boundaries and of healthy boundaries in general, and that there can be inbalances of power which mean that some groups require additional protections. Minors being one of them.

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2025 19:15

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 17:07

Isn't it up to 12 weeks in Italy?

Most of Europe it is 12 weeks at most, and only beyond that in exceptional circumstances.

  • 10 weeks: Croatia, Portugal, and Slovenia
  • 11 weeks: Estonia
  • 12 weeks: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, and Slovakia
  • 14 weeks: France, Romania, and Spain
  • 18 weeks: Sweden
  • 24 weeks: United Kingdom and the Netherlands (in practice, 22 weeks)
WarriorN · 11/11/2025 19:14

From my experience and in my opinion criticism of a religion, or any ideology, occurs when there is clear evidence of harm linked to some aspect of the faith.

Religions that don’t have much aspect of harm within them don’t receive criticism.

And in many religions, Islam in particular, there’s an overlap between cultural practices and what is part of the religion for specific historical reasons. I’ve been reading up recently about the burka for example and it’s a cultural tradition stemming from certain areas of the Islamic world. And other Islamic cultures and traditions and scholars do not subscribe to it, some even eschewing head coverings for women.

I found it very interesting to read about when France introduced the veil ban - it was slowly over a couple of decades, initially working with parents.

the impact was measurable in that Muslim girls began achieving more academically and in future careers, without it.

so it should be considered appropriate to politely and respectfully criticise such a practice, have the debates etc.

obviously this is more clear cut for fgm (and it’s important to note that fgm also occurred in Victorian western Christian cult for a while). I also have issues with circumcision, though obviously it can be a medical procedure that has to happen in later life for some teen boys.

Hinduism, Sikhism and Buddhism attract much less criticism. Obviously Judaism is very varied in the way it is practiced.

trans ideology wouldn’t be an issue if it wasn’t phenomenally harmful from all angles.

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2025 19:12

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 17:08

Moral sense that would guided by some religious dude.

No, just by the awareness that after a certain point a foetus becomes a baby and that taking a life is an act which has moral weight.

I've had terminations and have certainly felt that as a heavy burden - even in the early stages of pregnancy. As a woman, you are not separate to the life growing inside of you, and the instincts to feed and to nurture can kick in very early. To seek to terminate/kill and yet feel the opposite urge at the same time is certainly a moral quandry.

This has got nothing to do with organised religion, but more the wisdom of one's own soul/spirit and the profound instinct of one's own body.

EasternStandard · 11/11/2025 18:57

inkognitha · 11/11/2025 18:50

The UK is a theocracy, shuuuuure 😂
No mention of the Vatican though??
For someone so erudite and such a stickler for details and precision, I am surprised at the oversight, but finding colonialism and offense in everything must take a fair amount of your time and brainpower, you give a good show though

What the? That is a mad take I agree.

inkognitha · 11/11/2025 18:50

DeanElderberry · 11/11/2025 18:39

afaik, with neither the Dalai Lama nor the Emperor of Japan now combining temporal and spiritual power, the only countries that could be described as theocracies, in that the clergy form part of the government by right, not by election, are Iran and the UK.

On a day to day level, one of those is fairly secular, one of them is absolutely not.

The UK is a theocracy, shuuuuure 😂
No mention of the Vatican though??
For someone so erudite and such a stickler for details and precision, I am surprised at the oversight, but finding colonialism and offense in everything must take a fair amount of your time and brainpower, you give a good show though

DeanElderberry · 11/11/2025 18:39

TempestTost · 11/11/2025 18:27

Thanks you, I have been thinking this for several pages.

I suspect in a place like the UK, the majority of people who object to completely unlimited abortion up to birth are not especially religious, or even not religious at all.

It's interesting what some of the policy points are that some think constitute a litmus test for being allowed to participate in society.

Totally unrestricted abortion? A rarity in any western country, even the most secular. On;y tangentially related to any specific religious belief.

Same sex marriage? Are people's memories so short they believe that homophobia is the only reason some don't think same sex marriage is a good idea?Presumably they don't remember that it wasn't even overwhelmingly supported in the gay community for a long time, which suggests that maybe there were other reasons for that perspective.

I also think it's odd to equate positions like the Catholic perspective, which says that all sex should be potentially reproductive, with "homophobia." Not noticing presumably it also disallows a heck of a lot of heterosexual sex people have and has nothing in particular to do with fear of anyone.

And where does living in a country with some very religious people, as well as people of many other religions or no religion, who are totally free to leave their religion, become the same as living in a country that is a theocracy?

afaik, with neither the Dalai Lama nor the Emperor of Japan now combining temporal and spiritual power, the only countries that could be described as theocracies, in that the clergy form part of the government by right, not by election, are Iran and the UK.

On a day to day level, one of those is fairly secular, one of them is absolutely not.

inkognitha · 11/11/2025 18:37

DeanElderberry · 11/11/2025 18:33

The original debate seemed to be British people slagging off foreigners and religious reversible.

As a foreign religious believer I am in no way removed from that when I question allegations, point out errors, and protest at deeply offensive language.

Slavery is an interesting one. In the letter to Philemon, Paul indicates that the Christian slave Onesimus should return to his master, but also that the master, a Christian himself, should treat Onesimus as his brother. As so often, one would love to know how it worked out.

You’re winding yourself up into a proper OTT tantrum, but you do you

TempestTost · 11/11/2025 18:35

SerendipityJane · 11/11/2025 18:06

Mentioning slaves of course reminds us that slavery is totally fine in by the bible Christianity (and the commandments give specific details on how you should treat your male and female slaves, just to be safe).

The Bible doesn't criticise any particular economic structures. It just says that everyone in them, at every level, is human and equally loved by God.

DeanElderberry · 11/11/2025 18:33

inkognitha · 11/11/2025 18:16

You keep down your rabbit hole 5 steps removed from the original debate, it’s the only thing you have left, enjoy 😉

The original debate seemed to be British people slagging off foreigners and religious reversible.

As a foreign religious believer I am in no way removed from that when I question allegations, point out errors, and protest at deeply offensive language.

Slavery is an interesting one. In the letter to Philemon, Paul indicates that the Christian slave Onesimus should return to his master, but also that the master, a Christian himself, should treat Onesimus as his brother. As so often, one would love to know how it worked out.

TempestTost · 11/11/2025 18:27

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2025 16:13

You don't need to be a Christian to have some moral sense that there do need to be some limits to abortion.

Edited

Thanks you, I have been thinking this for several pages.

I suspect in a place like the UK, the majority of people who object to completely unlimited abortion up to birth are not especially religious, or even not religious at all.

It's interesting what some of the policy points are that some think constitute a litmus test for being allowed to participate in society.

Totally unrestricted abortion? A rarity in any western country, even the most secular. On;y tangentially related to any specific religious belief.

Same sex marriage? Are people's memories so short they believe that homophobia is the only reason some don't think same sex marriage is a good idea?Presumably they don't remember that it wasn't even overwhelmingly supported in the gay community for a long time, which suggests that maybe there were other reasons for that perspective.

I also think it's odd to equate positions like the Catholic perspective, which says that all sex should be potentially reproductive, with "homophobia." Not noticing presumably it also disallows a heck of a lot of heterosexual sex people have and has nothing in particular to do with fear of anyone.

And where does living in a country with some very religious people, as well as people of many other religions or no religion, who are totally free to leave their religion, become the same as living in a country that is a theocracy?

inkognitha · 11/11/2025 18:16

DeanElderberry · 11/11/2025 18:01

People understand clearly the concept of British Isles

There are at least three possible concepts; the most familiar two are Great Britain and the islands around it, fine; or an expression of English imperial over-reach, accepted by most of the Scots and the Welsh (who are Brittonic). That version is unacceptable and it is offensive to apply it to Ireland, where it is not used.

You keep down your rabbit hole 5 steps removed from the original debate, it’s the only thing you have left, enjoy 😉

Imnobody4 · 11/11/2025 18:15

SerendipityJane · 11/11/2025 18:06

Mentioning slaves of course reminds us that slavery is totally fine in by the bible Christianity (and the commandments give specific details on how you should treat your male and female slaves, just to be safe).

Well it's a good job we can criticise it then and are protected by the law in doing so.
3 cheers for the Enlightenment and democracy. No cheers for for blasphemy laws or Islamic exceptionalism.

SerendipityJane · 11/11/2025 18:06

DeanElderberry · 11/11/2025 18:03

Indeed, which is why Patrick, son of a Deacon, evangelised here after he was kidnapped by iris slavers.

Mentioning slaves of course reminds us that slavery is totally fine in by the bible Christianity (and the commandments give specific details on how you should treat your male and female slaves, just to be safe).

DeanElderberry · 11/11/2025 18:03

SerendipityJane · 11/11/2025 17:30

Christianity was around in Britain waaaaaaay before 600AD and Augustine (I am guessing that's the PPs drift).

Obviously it was suppressed (well, you'd have to) but when Augustine rocked up at Canterbury to convert the "Angels" (and religious jokes never really got much better) they kept on knocking on doors saying "can we tell you about Jesus ?" to be met with "What about him ? We've been worshipping him for centuries).

Of course Celtic Christianity elevated women and allowed them to be priests. Now I am not saying that is why it's not "remembered" but it does seem a tad misogynistic.

Indeed, which is why Patrick, son of a Deacon, evangelised here after he was kidnapped by iris slavers.

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 18:02

DeanElderberry · 11/11/2025 17:55

Every single page, aloud so no skipping, from the start of Genesis to the end of Revelation. Catholic bible, so including the 7 books Luther excised. No paedophilia, no other incest.

You might call it child marriage....Or just marriage

DeanElderberry · 11/11/2025 18:01

inkognitha · 11/11/2025 17:40

I suppose it feels a lot better finding a new point of detail to argue than admitting to oneself you have no arguments.

People understand clearly the concept of British Isles, I am not doing a scientific presentation, I am giving an opinion on MN (while on the go and on a mobile) that suddenly veered into general history. British Isles will do just fine 😋

People understand clearly the concept of British Isles

There are at least three possible concepts; the most familiar two are Great Britain and the islands around it, fine; or an expression of English imperial over-reach, accepted by most of the Scots and the Welsh (who are Brittonic). That version is unacceptable and it is offensive to apply it to Ireland, where it is not used.

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