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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Criticism of Islam is a protected belief

439 replies

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 09/11/2025 21:32

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15272771/Criticism-Islam-ruled-legally-protected-belief-man-banned-fined-thousands-pounds-social-media-posts.html

I wasn't able to find the judgment. There'll be a hearing in February but it's not clear to me whether claimant's beliefs have already been tested for Grainger compliance. Either way, the tribunal will (also) have to address objectionable manifestation (Bananarama doctrine).

I've raised it here because of the parallels with Forstater. It's a constant refrain of TRAs that permitting Forstater belief is tantamount to attacking GR as a protected characteristic. They do not understand secularism (or the SC ruling).

Of course the situation is not the same insofar as Islam has not been written into our law and Muslims don't expect the rest of us to follow its rules.

Article 9, anyone?

Criticism of Islam can be a legally protected belief, judge rules

Patrick Lee is pursuing a belief discrimination claim against the Institute and Faculty of Actuaries (IFoA) after it banned him and fined him nearly £23,000 last year over a series of tweets criticising Islam.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15272771/Criticism-Islam-ruled-legally-protected-belief-man-banned-fined-thousands-pounds-social-media-posts.html

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12
JadeSquid · 12/11/2025 12:15

quantumbutterfly · 12/11/2025 12:12

And yet you haven't answered.
How do you eat, or even drink water in a burqa.
Phys ed is a lawful requirement in schools, how do you do that in a burqa.
If your answer is ' take it off', why even wear it.

You do know what a burqa is?

Yes I do, they eat and drink just fine. Those who want it are provided a single sex environment for things they might want to do. PE is single sex. There has been alternatives to PE kits which allow free movement while preserving modesty since back in my day.

Do you live in Little Whinging?

Imnobody4 · 12/11/2025 12:13

SerendipityJane · 12/11/2025 11:11

If you have to "grapple" with the essential meaning of Jesus' teaching, then you really haven't understood them.

The only "grappling" that ever needs to be done is when you are looking for loopholes.

I've not seen any philosopher in the ancient world criticise slavery as an institution.

Why do you think that is ? Once again the ancients (i.e. pre Christian) lived in a completely different world to us. Throwing concepts of "good", "evil, "harm" around is meaningless. They had no concept of human life as being in any way equal. That is very much a Christian contrivance (although the story of the last 2,000 years has been people "grappling" with the concept to explain why it doesn't apply to them).

Just to address the thread title, do you think Islam should be protected from criticism or ridicule by the law or should the law protect my freedom to say what I think about it?

All religions are equally deserving of the same protection afforded to Harry Potter, Sherlock Holmes, or Peter Pan.

Christianity is part of the Ancient World as are all the pre Christian philosophers Plato, Aristotle (very influential on Christianity), Socrates, the pre Socratics, the Sophists etc etc.
Issues around laws and morality, justice and virtue have occupied humanity way before Christianity.

EasternStandard · 12/11/2025 12:13

EmmyFr · 12/11/2025 11:59

I absolutely do! It is vile! It is abhorrent! I'm just pointing out that while LGB people are still being mistreated by religions (note the plural), it is absolutely not to the same degree across said religions despite what @JadeSquid is claiming.

Yes I agree. The equivalence isn’t there across religions.

JadeSquid · 12/11/2025 12:13

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/11/2025 11:54

You don't think that ending a life or destroying a life carries any emotional or moral weight?

Not when it comes to my fetuses no, i don't count it as a life. It cant survive without me. Until I decide I want to continue the pregnancy and actually have a baby, it's essentially a parasite to me. I dont count it the same as murdering a human who has been born. I count it as bodily autonomy

quantumbutterfly · 12/11/2025 12:12

JadeSquid · 12/11/2025 11:50

Lol do they do PE? How do they eat their lunch. Lol. You guys are hysterical.

And yet you haven't answered.
How do you eat, or even drink water in a burqa.
Phys ed is a lawful requirement in schools, how do you do that in a burqa.
If your answer is ' take it off', why even wear it.

You do know what a burqa is?

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/11/2025 12:06

JadeSquid · 12/11/2025 08:00

Of course it does. If a Christian country oppresses people.based on it's religious beliefs, then that's as bad as a Islamic country doing the same.

You are talking about particular extremist sects, not about Christianity generally.

There is no universal, imperative in contemporary Christianity for a woman to cover her head or wear any specific item of clothing. Practices and interpretations vary widely by denomination and culture; whereas in Islam there is an imperative for a woman to wear a hijab and cover her head.

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/11/2025 12:03

In Islam, the predominant interpretation among Muslim scholars, supported by the Quran and authentic Hadith, is that there is an
imperative for a woman to cover her head and body in public, a practice commonly referred to as the hijab. This is considered an obligation (fard or wajib) for all Muslim women who have reached puberty.

Bangbangwhizzbang · 12/11/2025 12:02

MrsSkylerWhite · 12/11/2025 12:01

Fair enough. I wish none of them existed. Invented by the rich and powerful to keep the poor in place, more laterally used by men to keep women in place.

Why do you think it would be different if they didn’t?

MrsSkylerWhite · 12/11/2025 12:01

EmmyFr · 12/11/2025 11:59

I absolutely do! It is vile! It is abhorrent! I'm just pointing out that while LGB people are still being mistreated by religions (note the plural), it is absolutely not to the same degree across said religions despite what @JadeSquid is claiming.

Fair enough. I wish none of them existed. Invented by the rich and powerful to keep the poor in place, more laterally used by men to keep women in place.

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/11/2025 12:00

JadeSquid · 12/11/2025 11:50

Lol do they do PE? How do they eat their lunch. Lol. You guys are hysterical.

Lol. So are you.....though not quite so smart as you seem to think. Making it all up as you go along.

EmmyFr · 12/11/2025 11:59

MrsSkylerWhite · 12/11/2025 11:54

You don’t find it absolutely shocking that there is even one?

I absolutely do! It is vile! It is abhorrent! I'm just pointing out that while LGB people are still being mistreated by religions (note the plural), it is absolutely not to the same degree across said religions despite what @JadeSquid is claiming.

Bangbangwhizzbang · 12/11/2025 11:58

JadeSquid · 12/11/2025 11:47

No they arent because they cannot be of their religion and wear jeans. You can be Muslim and not wear a hijab.

Why do you think Muslim girls wear Burkas?

MrsSkylerWhite · 12/11/2025 11:57

EasternStandard · 12/11/2025 11:53

If you’d like to discuss Africa there are some horrendous atrocities happening in Mali and other countries. Here’s the latest but it’s been going on for some time.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20e2lnvgpgo.amp

Don’t doubt it. As I said, I think religion is dangerous nonsense. Whatever religion.

EmmyFr · 12/11/2025 11:56

JadeSquid · 12/11/2025 11:48

It isnt just the Amish that live like this. Not by any means.

Amish, Mormon, you name it, or any other sect, my point stands and you know it. That's why you try to handwave or find a small detail to deflect instead of answering.

MrsSkylerWhite · 12/11/2025 11:55

They may not face execution in the other minority christian countries but they certainly face ostracism from the church community.

All religion is divisive.

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/11/2025 11:54

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 19:37

You said:

"No, just by the awareness that after a certain point a foetus becomes a baby and that taking a life is an act which has moral weight."

That speaks of all pregnancies.

You don't think that ending a life or destroying a life carries any emotional or moral weight?

MrsSkylerWhite · 12/11/2025 11:54

EmmyFr · 12/11/2025 11:51

12 countries apply the death penalty for homosexual relationships: Saudi Arabia, Brunéi, Mauritania, Nigeria, Yemen, Uganda, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Qatar, Somalia.

Of these, only Uganda has a Christian majority. The Ugandan dictator is a fundamentalist evangelical Christian, and the Catholic Church has publicly opposed death penalty for HR.

All the other 11 countries are Muslim majority, many of them claiming Islam as defining the law of the country (as in the Islamic Republic of Iran, the Islamic Republic of Mauritania).

You don’t find it absolutely shocking that there is even one?

EasternStandard · 12/11/2025 11:53

MrsSkylerWhite · 12/11/2025 11:49

Well no, obviously not here. Afghanistan isn’t here, either? I thought this was about religion worldwide.

If you’d like to discuss Africa there are some horrendous atrocities happening in Mali and other countries. Here’s the latest but it’s been going on for some time.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20e2lnvgpgo.amp

Drivers of Malian tanker trucks sit on chairs beside their vehicles - one dressed in blue overalls checks his mobile phone - as they wait to cross the border between Ivory Coast and Mali - 31 October 2025.

Mali fuel blockade: How jihadists have paralysed an entire country - BBC News

Mali has been paralysed by a fuel blockade, which has disrupted transport, schools, hospitals and more.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20e2lnvgpgo.amp

EmmyFr · 12/11/2025 11:51

MrsSkylerWhite · 12/11/2025 11:41

Fundamental Christianity in some African countries is completely curtailing and sometimes barbaric if a young woman is homosexual.
No whataboutery from me, equivalence.

12 countries apply the death penalty for homosexual relationships: Saudi Arabia, Brunéi, Mauritania, Nigeria, Yemen, Uganda, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Qatar, Somalia.

Of these, only Uganda has a Christian majority. The Ugandan dictator is a fundamentalist evangelical Christian, and the Catholic Church has publicly opposed death penalty for HR.

All the other 11 countries are Muslim majority, many of them claiming Islam as defining the law of the country (as in the Islamic Republic of Iran, the Islamic Republic of Mauritania).

JadeSquid · 12/11/2025 11:50

quantumbutterfly · 12/11/2025 09:57

I'm not sure why you keep holding up extremes in the US as representative. Do you live there?
This thread is about freedom to criticise all religions in the UK without fear or favour. I see a lot to criticise.
I'm actually horrified at schoolgirls in burqas, do they do PE? How do they eat their lunch?
What faith puts such strictures on schoolgirls, not even grown women, in the UK.

@JadeSquid

Edited

Lol do they do PE? How do they eat their lunch. Lol. You guys are hysterical.

MrsSkylerWhite · 12/11/2025 11:49

EasternStandard · 12/11/2025 11:45

Not here even with a soft underpinning of Christianity. How lucky we are as women and girls.

How desperate it is for women and girls elsewhere, particularly when so many turn a blind eye and prefer to talk about anything else.

Well no, obviously not here. Afghanistan isn’t here, either? I thought this was about religion worldwide.

EasternStandard · 12/11/2025 11:49

JadeSquid · 12/11/2025 11:47

No they arent because they cannot be of their religion and wear jeans. You can be Muslim and not wear a hijab.

@JadeSquidare you aware what happens to women and girls in Afghanistan?

Did you know stoning was made lawful?

JadeSquid · 12/11/2025 11:48

EmmyFr · 12/11/2025 11:16

I feel (strongly) that the Amish should be prosecuted for not giving their children modern medicine. But it's a question of children's rights, not of women's rights (and a narrow question at that in terms of% of population).

But if a grown Amish woman wants to see a modern doctor and her husband stops her she can sue him. And any US Court will rule in her favor and possibly throw the man in jail.

Now if a grown Afghan woman wants to see a modern doctor the State will throw her into jail.

Still can't see the difference ? And again, not mentioning stoning to death and the likes

It isnt just the Amish that live like this. Not by any means.

JadeSquid · 12/11/2025 11:47

Bangbangwhizzbang · 12/11/2025 10:02

The girls not allowed to wear jeans were in exactly the same place as those who wear a burkha. It’s all good as just diversity though?

No they arent because they cannot be of their religion and wear jeans. You can be Muslim and not wear a hijab.

EasternStandard · 12/11/2025 11:45

MrsSkylerWhite · 12/11/2025 11:41

Fundamental Christianity in some African countries is completely curtailing and sometimes barbaric if a young woman is homosexual.
No whataboutery from me, equivalence.

Not here even with a soft underpinning of Christianity. How lucky we are as women and girls.

How desperate it is for women and girls elsewhere, particularly when so many turn a blind eye and prefer to talk about anything else.