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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Criticism of Islam is a protected belief

439 replies

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 09/11/2025 21:32

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15272771/Criticism-Islam-ruled-legally-protected-belief-man-banned-fined-thousands-pounds-social-media-posts.html

I wasn't able to find the judgment. There'll be a hearing in February but it's not clear to me whether claimant's beliefs have already been tested for Grainger compliance. Either way, the tribunal will (also) have to address objectionable manifestation (Bananarama doctrine).

I've raised it here because of the parallels with Forstater. It's a constant refrain of TRAs that permitting Forstater belief is tantamount to attacking GR as a protected characteristic. They do not understand secularism (or the SC ruling).

Of course the situation is not the same insofar as Islam has not been written into our law and Muslims don't expect the rest of us to follow its rules.

Article 9, anyone?

Criticism of Islam can be a legally protected belief, judge rules

Patrick Lee is pursuing a belief discrimination claim against the Institute and Faculty of Actuaries (IFoA) after it banned him and fined him nearly £23,000 last year over a series of tweets criticising Islam.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15272771/Criticism-Islam-ruled-legally-protected-belief-man-banned-fined-thousands-pounds-social-media-posts.html

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NeedToKnow101 · 10/11/2025 16:57

Swiftasthewind · 10/11/2025 15:38

This is not the right direction. Islamophobia is absolutely rife in the western hemisphere and there should be increased legal implications to combat it. You should not have the right to make fun of/insult the sincerely held religious and moral convictions of people from minority backgrounds who are already vulnerable to exploitation amongst the majority population.

We are heading for another dark age at this rate.

You’re joking right?!

Swiftasthewind · 10/11/2025 16:38

HermioneWeasley · 10/11/2025 16:33

Nope, curtailing people’s right to criticise a religion is the dark age practice.

and there is much to criticise in the way Islam is practiced by many. It largely manifests with misogyny, homophobia and antisemitism. a report from M15 yesterday said 75% of activity/terror plots were by Islamic extremists. We absolutely must be able to question and challenge it.

That isn’t true. Most terrorist suspects are from an ideology known as ‘alt-right’, which is an off shoot of far right ideology that worships a guy called Fore Chan. It is far more dangerous than Islam.

HermioneWeasley · 10/11/2025 16:33

Swiftasthewind · 10/11/2025 15:38

This is not the right direction. Islamophobia is absolutely rife in the western hemisphere and there should be increased legal implications to combat it. You should not have the right to make fun of/insult the sincerely held religious and moral convictions of people from minority backgrounds who are already vulnerable to exploitation amongst the majority population.

We are heading for another dark age at this rate.

Nope, curtailing people’s right to criticise a religion is the dark age practice.

and there is much to criticise in the way Islam is practiced by many. It largely manifests with misogyny, homophobia and antisemitism. a report from M15 yesterday said 75% of activity/terror plots were by Islamic extremists. We absolutely must be able to question and challenge it.

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 10/11/2025 16:31

quantumbutterfly · 10/11/2025 16:27

A faith that has no faith in itself?

🤔

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quantumbutterfly · 10/11/2025 16:27

Bangbangwhizzbang · 10/11/2025 16:20

Absolutely! What sort of religious faith requires insulation from unbelief? That doesn’t sound like a faith at all!

A faith that has no faith in itself?

Bangbangwhizzbang · 10/11/2025 16:20

Isayitasitis · 10/11/2025 16:18

To me you should be allowed to criticise or disagree with anything, as long as you are not abusive or bullying.

Absolutely! What sort of religious faith requires insulation from unbelief? That doesn’t sound like a faith at all!

Isayitasitis · 10/11/2025 16:18

To me you should be allowed to criticise or disagree with anything, as long as you are not abusive or bullying.

Bangbangwhizzbang · 10/11/2025 16:11

Swiftasthewind · 10/11/2025 15:38

This is not the right direction. Islamophobia is absolutely rife in the western hemisphere and there should be increased legal implications to combat it. You should not have the right to make fun of/insult the sincerely held religious and moral convictions of people from minority backgrounds who are already vulnerable to exploitation amongst the majority population.

We are heading for another dark age at this rate.

Strange that you mention the dark ages when Islam colonised large areas, including Spain and caused the death of millions and enslaved millions more, and where Christians and Jews had to pay a tax in order to be allowed to live. If we cannot criticise Islam then we are heading into a new dark age.

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 10/11/2025 15:59

Swiftasthewind · 10/11/2025 15:38

This is not the right direction. Islamophobia is absolutely rife in the western hemisphere and there should be increased legal implications to combat it. You should not have the right to make fun of/insult the sincerely held religious and moral convictions of people from minority backgrounds who are already vulnerable to exploitation amongst the majority population.

We are heading for another dark age at this rate.

You should not have the right to make fun of/insult the sincerely held religious and moral convictions of people from minority backgrounds who are already vulnerable to exploitation amongst the majority population.

We absolutely should and do have that right. Bad beliefs should be challenged, not nervously skirted around because held by a minority.

Whether it's rude or unpleasant is a different issue.

Whether it might provoke violence from that minority is a different issue.

Whether criticism turns into something else, that is actually a crime, or at least destroys a potential claim of protected belief, is a different issue.

I think the existing protections for Muslims are just fine.

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EasternStandard · 10/11/2025 15:51

SoftLeaf · 10/11/2025 15:34

Christianity gets mocked left right and centre, and it’s taken on the chin. It’s so embedded in society, comedy, debate that nobody even questions it.

Yes exactly. And this certainly doesn’t get the term phobia.

Signalbox · 10/11/2025 15:40

Christinapple · 10/11/2025 14:08

So does that also mean criticising Christianity is also a protected belief?

It's only fair right?

I assume you don’t live in the UK. Of course criticism of Christianity is a protected belief. You can see examples from of everywhere. And thankfully you can be fully critical of Christianity without risk of cancellation or death threats.

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 10/11/2025 15:39

Bangbangwhizzbang · 10/11/2025 15:26

provided the criticism didn't rise to the level of being harassment, victimisation or discrimination against Muslims as people

Whilst individuals can harass, they are not covered by duties under the Equality Act unless in the course of their employment or providing services.

Yes, so if he had, say, threatened not to take on Muslims as clients, it would have been OK for his professional body to deregister him for discrimination. But his opinions as such were none of their business.

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Swiftasthewind · 10/11/2025 15:38

This is not the right direction. Islamophobia is absolutely rife in the western hemisphere and there should be increased legal implications to combat it. You should not have the right to make fun of/insult the sincerely held religious and moral convictions of people from minority backgrounds who are already vulnerable to exploitation amongst the majority population.

We are heading for another dark age at this rate.

SoftLeaf · 10/11/2025 15:34

Christinapple · 10/11/2025 14:08

So does that also mean criticising Christianity is also a protected belief?

It's only fair right?

Christianity gets mocked left right and centre, and it’s taken on the chin. It’s so embedded in society, comedy, debate that nobody even questions it.

PreciousTatas · 10/11/2025 15:31

Christinapple · 10/11/2025 14:08

So does that also mean criticising Christianity is also a protected belief?

It's only fair right?

Have you never seen Monty Python?

Imagine them ever getting a comedy film off the ground that mocked Islam/Muhammed.

Bangbangwhizzbang · 10/11/2025 15:26

provided the criticism didn't rise to the level of being harassment, victimisation or discrimination against Muslims as people

Whilst individuals can harass, they are not covered by duties under the Equality Act unless in the course of their employment or providing services.

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 10/11/2025 15:23

Mapletree1985 · 10/11/2025 14:37

Are we eventually going to have to go through the process of legally determining every single opinion as a protected belief? "Pineapple tastes good on pizza is protected belief, Supreme Court finds." " Judge rules 'Conservative Party full of knobheads, Labour not much better' protected belief." And so on.

Nobody should need to go to court for the freedom to criticise any religion.

Nobody should need to go to court for the freedom to criticise any religion.

The state did not directly inhibit his freedom to criticise Islam (which would have been an Article 10 breach, provided the criticism didn't rise to the level of being harassment, victimisation or discrimination against Muslims as people, or some other infraction such as incitement to violence).

It did it indirectly (in the first instance decision) by failing to protect him from discrimination on the grounds of the beliefs he had expressed, which were not relevant to his job (I'm guessing you could sack a vicar for being an atheist).

Sacking him for thinking that pineapple on pizza is an abomination would be unfair dismissal (after two years employment) anyway, because it's termination without a good reason or fair procedure.

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Mapletree1985 · 10/11/2025 14:37

Are we eventually going to have to go through the process of legally determining every single opinion as a protected belief? "Pineapple tastes good on pizza is protected belief, Supreme Court finds." " Judge rules 'Conservative Party full of knobheads, Labour not much better' protected belief." And so on.

Nobody should need to go to court for the freedom to criticise any religion.

Bangbangwhizzbang · 10/11/2025 14:22

Christinapple · 10/11/2025 14:08

So does that also mean criticising Christianity is also a protected belief?

It's only fair right?

What gave you the impression that you couldn’t criticise Christianity? Criticism of Christianity is widespread.

Worldwide the Christians are the most persecuted religious group. Not just the currant massacres of hundreds of thousands of Christians by Islamists in Sudan and Nigeria, but also those in Syria, the genocide of Yazidis (Christians), those in Nagorno Karabakh, in India, China, Indonesia, the targeting of Christians in Pakistan under their notorious blasphemy laws… not to mention laws that discriminate against them in every Islamic country.

Christinapple · 10/11/2025 14:08

So does that also mean criticising Christianity is also a protected belief?

It's only fair right?

Bangbangwhizzbang · 10/11/2025 11:41

Toutafait · 10/11/2025 11:19

Under European human rights law?

Yes.

Toutafait · 10/11/2025 11:19

Bangbangwhizzbang · 10/11/2025 08:04

it is not just the belief that is protected - it is also the expression of that belief.

Under European human rights law?

Bangbangwhizzbang · 10/11/2025 08:04

caringcarer · 09/11/2025 23:29

How can it be possible to stop someone having a belief? Who would police our thoughts and beliefs? Providing people do not descriminate or behave in ways that are unlawful does it really matter?

it is not just the belief that is protected - it is also the expression of that belief.

GarlicHound · 10/11/2025 08:01

oldtiredcyclist · 10/11/2025 07:33

I wonder how the law would treat my wife, who was brought up as a Muslim in Iran and is very critical of the religion (as I am of Catholicism) and the effect it had on her in 1979 and her subsequent departure from the country of her birth, for obvious reasons.

I think the law would treat you both just fine unless you started campaigns of violence & intimidation against priests and imams. We are going through a period of potential mission creep, however.

As @Bringemout says, it's very annoying that people have to go through court cases to get perfectly sound existing laws clarified. That's how our legal system works, though. It does mean that zealots trying to manipulate the law will (eventually, expensively) get knocked down.

I actively dislike every organised religion. I have what I think are good reasons. I'm free to talk about this - as I do!

I am not free to commit actual crimes - harassment, stalking, threats of harm, incitement to violence, etc - against anyone at all, religious or not. If I do that and make it about their religion, I commit a 'hate' crime: the crime's aggravated by their protected characteristic.

It seems utterly pointless to create an extra layer on this for one particular religion. Apart from the fact that we already have this law, it would be unfair to the other religions. And they'd be straight in court to stress the point!