Criticism of Islam is a protected belief

To bring my usual two French cents to the discussion and notably for the benefit of @JadeSquid a 2020 survey in France found that 38% of Muslims put religious law above the law of the French Republic, against 15% of Catholics. In other words, 15% of Catholics might find it OK to perpetrate homophobic acts (thankfully prohibited by French law) vs 38% of Muslims and a very worrying 57% of young Muslims.

The difference in numbers is simply staggering, and you can't just wave it away by saying "oh but all religions are homophobic". And on top of that, Sharia law dictates that you should stone people who have homosexual relationships, whereas Catholic law says they should be rejected from the Church and frowned upon (which I absolutely disagree with, to be clear) . Not the same punishment by far.

Yes I am baffled as to why you'd need to criticise any religion at work. I think that criticising one religion for something like homophobia while ignoring that all religions are homophobic speaks of a bias against Islam.

I think you should call out the homophobia and others forms of abuse and discrimination by your brothers in the church (and your sisters when your brothers permit them to have a significant role) before you start on your Islamic cousins. Look in before you look out.

I haven't argued in favour of a ban..I said that I believe someone who has had to go to court to argue for their right to publicly express criticism of Islam will likely discriminate against people they perceive as Muslims. The same goes for someone who thinks badly of Christianity interviewing someone with a big cross around the neck or a nun. I don't think you can feel that strongly about it without bias affecting your judgement and performance overall.

Quakers make up about 200k of Christians around the world.

Methodists changed their stance in 2024 but some places like Ireland still only reocngise heterosexual marriage. Evangelicals are also split on homosexuality. Just because you know a few individuals that have nuanced views, it doesn't take away from the fact that the religion itself is homophobic. Christianity is inherently homophobic, like Islam and Judaism.

I’m not disputing that but in this thread you have argued in favour of a ban of criticising such homophobia in Islam and as supported by Muslims.

Is there a reason why you don’t understand this point?

Are there any other influential religious leaders working with the government to ban criticism of their homophobia? If so, feel free to raise that too.

I have been regularly to church for most of my life including childhood. There was never ANY homophobic teaching and the openly gay members of the congregation were fully accepted.

I have no idea what sort of minority group you are talking about.

That just shows how little you understand. Christianity or Christian denominations. Many other denominations perform same sex marriages, including Quakers, Methodists and unitarians.

Evangelicals of any denomination would not disown a homosexual child either; to them being a homosexual is considered a burden as you must remain celibate as sex (including heterosexual sex) outside marriage is a sin and marriage is between a man and a woman. And they recognise everyone sins in some way. But to be a celibate homosexual is not an issue.

There seems a persistent belief amongst certain posters that the UK is America on the other side of the Atlantic. The American right wing fundamentalists Christian sects barely exist here.

Why are you talking about Christians when I am talking about church goers?

Anyone can say they are a Christian or C of E, but theyve never actually worshipped collectively or attended a church for anything other than a wedding, baptism or funeral. The surveys that count are by those who regularly worship. That's where you get to know what is really being taught at these places.

My point is that Islam isn't the only homophobic religion. I am not arguing that Islam is not homophobic. I am arguing that most religions are.

Why are you talking about Christians when I am talking about church goers?

Anyone can say they are a Christian or C of E, but theyve never actually worshipped collectively or attended a church for anything other than a wedding, baptism or funeral. The surveys that count are by those who regularly worship. That's where you get to know what is really being taught at these places.

https://www.premierchristianity.com/opinion/a-new-survey-claims-most-anglicans-back-gay-marriage-but-the-truth-is-very-different/6183.article

"Let’s start with how many Anglicans there are. 5,120 people were questioned as a representative sample of the UK population. Of those, 1,088 (weighted) said they were 'Anglican’, over 21 per cent. In England and Wales that became 1,078 of 4,680, or 23 per cent. Let’s think about that for a moment – if these 'Anglicans' were in the Church of England and Church in Wales (the Anglican Church in Wales) every Sunday that would mean we had 13.5 million people in our pews each week.

Of course the reality is different – the most recent <a class="break-all" href="https://www.premierchristianity.com/opinion/a-new-survey-claims-most-anglicans-back-gay-marriage-but-the-truth-is-very-different/%20www.churchofengland.org/media-and-news/press-releases/statistics-mission-2020" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">“Statistics for Mission” from the Church of England (the annual report on church attendance) tells us that the average weekly attendance (those attending on Sunday or another day of the week) is just short of 750,000. That means that almost 95 per cent of the 'Anglicans' in the survey are not regular church attenders, even in a non-Covid year."

And just to bring it back to my original statement:

"Most church goers I know would disown any child they had who was anything other than heterosexual."

"

I’m not sure what your point is here, or why you’re so keen to be seen to be right on this. Why is that? Where are you based and what denominations are the Christians you know?

I’m in the UK and none of the. Christians I know would disown their child if they were gay. One or two Christians I know who worship in the charismatic tradition would be upset and worried, but none would disown their kids. The Anglicans wouldn’t give a fig and most of the Catholics wouldn’t either, though again, one or two of the older ones might be worried. I’m talking about practising Christians here, not the general population who might say they’re CofE but never attend church.

No. You asked Why would you even be in a conversation at work about your beliefs about any religion? Why would you need to employ skills of "tolerance" to work with someone of faith?

On a thread about Islam, where you and PPs have suggested that we shouldn’t be allowed to even criticise Islam and Keir Starmer wants to try and outlaw such criticism, I responded to that question.

If you want to start a thread criticising other religions feel free but afaik there are no current moves to outlaw that. Only criticism of ‘targeting expressions of Muslimness’ which, as 47% of Muslims polled think that a gay person shouldn’t even be employed as a teacher, I think that would constitute an ‘expression of Muslimness’, and not being allowed to criticise that would lead to pretty blatant discrimination against gay people.

If you are so desperate to protect Muslims from the rest of us that you would want to stop us calling out blatant homophobia, I’d say that’s a ‘you’ problem.

The other user spoke as if needing to be able to criticise Islam is necessary as the religion is homophobic. All religions are homophobic, tht user just does⅞n't have any need to speak about the homophobia in Judaism or Christianity. They only want to criticise Islam and its followers.

Most church goers I know would disown any child they had who was anything other than heterosexual.

https://www.premierchristianity.com/opinion/a-new-survey-claims-most-anglicans-back-gay-marriage-but-the-truth-is-very-different/6183.article

"Let’s start with how many Anglicans there are. 5,120 people were questioned as a representative sample of the UK population. Of those, 1,088 (weighted) said they were 'Anglican’, over 21 per cent. In England and Wales that became 1,078 of 4,680, or 23 per cent. Let’s think about that for a moment – if these 'Anglicans' were in the Church of England and Church in Wales (the Anglican Church in Wales) every Sunday that would mean we had 13.5 million people in our pews each week.

Of course the reality is different – the most recent <a class="break-all" href="https://www.premierchristianity.com/opinion/a-new-survey-claims-most-anglicans-back-gay-marriage-but-the-truth-is-very-different/%20www.churchofengland.org/media-and-news/press-releases/statistics-mission-2020" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">“Statistics for Mission” from the Church of England (the annual report on church attendance) tells us that the average weekly attendance (those attending on Sunday or another day of the week) is just short of 750,000. That means that almost 95 per cent of the 'Anglicans' in the survey are not regular church attenders, even in a non-Covid year."

And just to bring it back to my original statement:

"Most church goers I know would disown any child they had who was anything other than heterosexual."

"

What about the 47% of Muslims that say it is not acceptable for a gay person to become a teacher? These are the followers of that religion who have chosen to follow that religious doctrine.

Do you think that view affects how they treat gay teachers?

From the Guardian article I shared:

“Of those questioned, 88% said Britain was a good place for Muslims to live in, and 78% said they would like to integrate into British life on most things apart from Islamic schooling and some laws.
However, when asked to what extent they agreed or disagreed that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, 18% said they agreed and 52% said they disagreed, compared with 5% among the public at large who disagreed. Almost half (47%) said they did not agree that it was acceptable for a gay person to become a teacher, compared with 14% of the general population.”

Most religions are intolerant of homosexuality. Their followers may have more nuanced beliefs.

Not globally, but in the UK they are. And I’m aware of that joke. It is just that, a joke. Sometimes people of a certain denomination may make snide comments about another. It doesn’t make it true, of course.

The other user spoke as if needing to be able to criticise Islam is necessary as the religion is homophobic. All religions are homophobic, tht user just does⅞n't have any need to speak about the homophobia in Judaism or Christianity. They only want to criticise Islam and its followers.

Most church goers I know would disown any child they had who was anything other than heterosexual.

Most Christians are not C of E. In fact, the joke among Christians generally is that C of E clergy are agnostic.

You can’t know many church-goers then. Or certainly you don’t know many church-goers outside of certain denominations. While some denominations teach against it, many Christians are relaxed about homosexuality. There are many gay vicars in the Church of England, particularly in the Anglo-Catholic tradition.

The other user spoke as if needing to be able to criticise Islam is necessary as the religion is homophobic. All religions are homophobic, tht user just does⅞n't have any need to speak about the homophobia in Judaism or Christianity. They only want to criticise Islam and its followers.

Most church goers I know would disown any child they had who was anything other than heterosexual.

Quite. Which is why reasonable people can criticise a religion but take its individual adherents as they find them.

So does that also mean criticising Christianity is also a protected belief?

It's only fair right?