Girlguiding faces legal action from parent over trans policy

Absolutely @midgetastic

I’m of a generation where men were able to wear make up and dress more adventurously - the 1980s gave men a lot of changes

i don’t know why that stopped

Hi all,
When I was a kid I used to love the Famous Five books. George pretended she was a boy. It was because she wanted to be able to do the activities and have the adventures that the boys did. She didn’t want to stay at home and prepare food with Ann These books were written in the 1950s when society had certain expectations of girls and women. Fortunately we have come a long way since then. Girls can now do anything. A woman can stand up and lead a room full of men, or go to work in a hard hat, or be a mountaineer. I do all of these things and in my experience society doesn’t bat an eyelid. And if a woman wants to, she can still be a stay at home mum. I did this too
and again no one batted an eyelid. I think Girlguiding contributed to this fortunate position. Guides certainly gave me the confidence to be myself. However there is still much more to be done. There are lots of girls who havent taken advantage of the changes in societal expectations or are yet to believe that they can do anything and that their dreams can become reality . I really hope that Girlguiding sorts out its identity/credibility crisis so that future girls can benefit from the girl only space which can help them to find their confidence.

Unfortunately, I don’t feel that society has come as far in changing its expectations of men / boys. Men cannot yet do anything. How harshly are they judged by their peers if they choose to be the stay at home dad, or work part time. How many of us would be horrified if our husbands or sons were to wear nail varnish ( me included I’m ashamed to admit). Do some boys / men feel that they can only gain the freedom to do what they want if they call themselves ‘girls’ or ‘women’, just like George called herself a ‘boy’ so that she could do the activities she wanted?

Maybe we won’t stop men and boys from trying to join girl only spaces until we change our image or expactions of men and boys within society. I don’t have a solution for how this change coukd be expedited. Any ideas?
Lets hope than one day everyone will truly be able to do anything, regardless of their sex. Let’s hope that one day we will look back in horror ( or amusement) at today.

Guiding is at a crossroads. Either they obey the law, as clarified by the recent judgment, and go back to being single sex, or they become mixed sex open to all.
Throughout my life in Guiding
(joined in 1966 as a brownie, have been a young leader, Brown Owl, Guide and Ranger leader) we have always tried to be inclusive- for all girls. From all backgrounds, rich or poor, diverse cultures and religions, disabilities - all girls welcome.
When the girls and young women are asked if they want to become a mixed group- the answer is always NO! They go to mixed schools, they have male family members, we also do some joint meetings and camps with cubs or scouts, but the girls have always said they want guiding to be a girl only space.
I asked our Rangers (16-18 in age) what they thought a few years ago. There had been some discussion amongst them about a boy they all knew who had decided to transition. They were sympathetic, felt sorry for them but said (unprompted from me) they wouldn’t feel comfortable with them sharing accommodation and private space as they knew they were male. As for a fully mixed sex group- “We’d have just joined Scouts Avery! We like it all girls here”

Girls benefit from this female only space- we do everything the boys do, plus what girls want to do. We play football, and rounders (and pancake tennis but that’s another story!). We find out about Parliament and women’s rights, we climb mountains and we do crafts and play silly games. We go camping and we use computers- we have sisters all around the world.

Why should we give this up in order to satisfy these males with special feelings?

What I fear might happen is Guiding becomes mixed, but changes the program and emphasis to more “girly “ stuff. More pink sparkles, less adventure.

Tumbleweed.

Let's continue on this.

Brownies is up to 10. Then what happens?

Let's give the benefit of doubt and pretend there's no issue with ten year old boys and sexual harassment despite the evidence.

Let's assume that we are prepared to sacrifice the privacy and dignity of ten year old girls who are maybe just starting their periods and finding the prospect of undressing amongst girls daunting enough without boys adding to the mix. (This meaning that drop out of camp).

What happens at Guides. Are male children then kicked out at this point because safeguarding? Or do you let them continue until say age 13 because of the age of statutory rape. Or do you say well they are only minors. How do you explain to the Muslim parents when little Dorothy is growing full facial hair and whose voice has broken and they are towering over the girls that yes they are definitely a girl, with a straight face?

Then what about Rangers. If you have said we are single sex, but oh actually you aren't single sex anymore and safeguarding starts to apply when you get to Rangers, what about hurty feelings then? How are you going to deal with the legal threat of that in order to safeguard the girls?

And then how do you deal with the leaders like the one from Nottingham who post inappropriate photos of themselves?

Honestly the practical implications and realities of this just are ignored by the evangelicals who choose to ignore reality and the need for safeguarding.

You can not decide to be single sex then decide to opt out when it suits. You just are mixed sex without safeguarding.

Yes, I let Rainbows quietly fall.away after this all became apparent. It is a pity, some of the stuff they do looks good.

This is why I wouldn't let my child join Brownies or Guides. I cannot agree with the policies and I would not let her attend for things like camps sharing tents, showers etc.... with biological males.

It is sad as I know she would absolutely love it, but as I dont trust them to safeguard girls it leaves me as a parent no choice.

Get em young and train them up to learn their rightful place as second class Bekind service bots.

Guides WAS about empowering girls; about time they were taught the proper fuction and role of females.

I do hope any girls questioning the presence of vulnerable boys in their spaces are being suitably chastised, shamed, and re educated.

Girlguiding can still be a girl-only organisation and include trans girls

The goal of TRAs everywhere.

Desperate not to make these organisations mixed sex, because the validation disappears. The sole presence of unconsenting girls is crucial,

Girlguiding’s approach doesn’t remove anything from other girls

It removes one of the most intrinsic factor of GG, the single sex space. That impacts every GG in the country and possibly overseas.

This is so true

It is discriminating against girls if you include boys in a girls only space. It is discriminating against some boys if you only let boys who identify as girls join but not boys who don't identify as girls. It is harassment if you tell girls they must pretend that a boy is a girl and make them share their toilets, changing rooms and sleeping quarters with boys.

That makes me so happy to hear. It sounds like a lot of guide leaders have been quietly getting on with being sane and supportive of girls while the leadership have gone bonkers. Thank you for your compassion for girls.

It's been very popular - loads of leaders locally wearing it as casual wear on camps etc. I wore it to a non-Guiding camping trip this summer and enjoyed the comments! I also got the tote bag which is really nice quality and makes me smile. It really is just 30+ somethings having a bit of nostalgia, nothing sinister. And probably a great money spinner for GGUK!

There was a sweatshirt and a tshirt for both brownies and guides. A lot of it has sold out and im not sure if they are making more.

Its not formal uniform so not official events but its part of the casual wear range so you can wear it on camp / brownie holiday etc.

I once bumped into a hen party who had all bought the largest sizes of the current brownie uniform top to wear on their pub crawl. Now that I did think was weird!

The retro range was just sweatshirts, I think, or that was all I saw being worn? Fine for leaders and the girls to wear.

Really? I was a Brownie in the 90's, wore that uniform and have also been a Guider in a Brownie unit. It's not something I can imagine ever buying. Where on earth would you wear it? Are Leaders allowed to wear it at actual meetings or events?

Apologies, i did clarify on the thread that I’d got that wrong and it was baden Powell. It was then rightly deleted.

That was a limited edition retro range for leaders. GG are launching a new uniform in 2026 for all sections and one of the bits of feedback from current leaders was how much everyone loved the 90s uniform (probably as it was the time that many current leaders were guides and brownies themselves). It has been massively popular with the current leaders.

Just spotted this slightly bizarre thread on Active.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/ami_beingunreasonable/5440998-girl-guide-thread?utmcampaign=thread&utmmedium=appshare

Edited to add, Ah, it's been deleted. OP was claiming that Scouts was set up by Lord Mountbatten.

Having an environment where girls can be themselves, free from judgment, is all about discrimination.

It is being able to lawfully discriminate that allows women to have spaces of their own. However, that discrimination does not mean that you can have a club which is "girls and some boys" as that would be direct discrimination against the particular group of boys that were not accepted. It may also be indirect discrimination for the girls as well.

"Which is presenting any none female in the program as a threat to their inclusion or safety."

Someone once said this, talking generally rather than specifically about the guides, but I think it is still appropriate in this situation:
.

There are various rationales for the need for women-only spaces. These include:

Women have an interest in self-determination. The role of women in society has, historically, been disproportionately determined by others, that is, men. For this reason it is particularly important that women, without men - the ‘others’ who did all the previous determining - are able to decide matters of importance themselves. Women need spaces of their own in order to self-determine, but also, by the act of creating spaces in which to be inaccessible, women are also exercising self-determination.

Self determination particularly justifies exclusion in spaces where there is the chance for women to talk and raise consciousness. This allows women to talk openly about and debate issues of interest from a female view without the presence of men.

Women also have an interest in respite from men; a break from male attitudes, expectations and behaviours. Women and men are generally socialised very differently, and this leads to differences in the average behaviour of women and men, which colours their interactions. Women are required to deal with these male attitudes, expectations and behaviours in mixed-sex spaces. Women-only spaces can provide an important respite from this.

There is no reason to think that transitioning (which does not necessarily involve hormones or surgery) would switch someone from demonstrating male-typical behaviour patterns to female-typical patterns. If trans-identifying men will bring some or all of these male-typical attitudes, expectations and behaviours into these spaces then that is, on its face, reason to exclude trans-identifying men from those spaces.

This rationale does not depend on it being the case that a particular male person would in fact bring male-socialised behaviours into a space. It is enough that women have to manage this possibility when men are around. Women-only spaces provide respite not just from certain sorts of behaviours, but from having to make contingency plans about what to do in light of certain sorts of behaviours - from being on guard.

Yes him! Urrrrrgh. How GG didn't see the huge red flags all over this one is baffling

Brrrrrrr ugh

If we accept this then we have to acknowledge that trans girls are male.
We cannot support stealthing.
We have to put safeguarding in place that we don't have mixed sex sleeping or toileting or washing.
Teenagers are going to teenage whatever their sex or however they identify.
If nothing else how would a trans girl feel about being put on a birth certificate as a father or being up on a charge of sexual assault by deception.