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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scottish Government win review for the right to place men in women's prisons

189 replies

ArabellaSaurus · 06/11/2025 12:07

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-court-battle-to-allow-trans-women-in-female-prisons-rpn2dff79

https://archive.ph/Dw1Wl

'SNP ministers are to fight in court to defend the right of biologically male criminals who identify as women to serve sentences in female jails.
A KC representing the Scottish government told a judge at the Court of Session in Edinburgh on Wednesday that self-ID policies in jails will remain a “live issue” in a new legal case, suggesting ministers are determined to keep them in place'

'Gerry Moynihan KC, representing the Scottish government, confirmed that controversial schools guidance, which allowed trans girls into female facilities and for biological boys to compete in female sports, had been “withdrawn”.

However, he confirmed that the Scottish government did not plan to back down on its prisons policy, which was rewritten after <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/Dw1Wl/www.thetimes.com/uk/law/article/nicola-sturgeon-trans-women-isla-bryson-77g8zzbll" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">the Isla Bryson scandal but still allows male-born criminals to serve sentences in women’s jails if they say they identify as female.'.

'For Women Scotland had wanted their bid to have the schools and prisons policies “reduced”, meaning quashed by the courts, to be conducted under an “ordinary” procedure, which it was hoped would be quicker, cheaper and more straightforward than a judicial review.
However, Moynihan successfully argued that the case should instead proceed under the more complex route, a move likely to lead to increased costs for taxpayers'
...
'A timetable will be set in the coming weeks with a substantive hearing to decide matters expected to last two days.'

SNP court battle to allow trans women in female prisons

The Scottish government refuses to back down on its jails policy and has secured a review in the Court of Session, meaning a longer legal battle over the issue

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/snp-court-battle-to-allow-trans-women-in-female-prisons-rpn2dff79

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7
ArabellaSaurus · 07/11/2025 11:48

Women complaining about their rights: 'probably racist'.

Men complaining about women: 'give him a grant and a personal police bodyguard'.

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ArabellaSaurus · 07/11/2025 11:47

When we talk about 'two tier' society, we should be looking at it through the lens of sex.

Take these two cases:

'...11 women tried to report Harkins to Police Scotland as far back as 2012.
Despite allegations of physical attacks, frauds, threats and abuse, Harkins was not investigated by police until late 2019.'
...
'Nadia reported the threats and abuse to Police Scotland. She also played a recording of a phone call from Harkins.
In it, he can be heard saying he would go to her dad's house, drag him out and give him a kicking.
"I was told nothing could be done for me," Nadia said.
"They said there was no direct threat - if and when he did something to call them straight back.
"Nobody took a statement. They did not want to help me'."'

Contrast with:

'Police Scotland's Chief Constable has defended her force's probe into 'Brollygate' calling it an 'alleged crime'.
Chief Constable Jo Farrell was unable to say yesterday when the saga, which has provoked a public outcry, would end despite a possible charge hanging over respected feminist campaigner Susan Smith.
... Ms Farrell who had appeared in front of Holyrood's criminal justice committee, told the Mail that a review into the incident was ongoing.
She said: 'We’ll work through the issues that have been brought to our attention, including that issue in relation to the damage to the brolly and we'll come up with our conclusion and our findings.’
Asked if the case was a proportionate use of police time and resources, she said: ‘We're here to support and allow people to exercise their rights around free speech in a democracy.''

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5435062-susan-smith-facing-charges-for-trans-brolly-spat

Women, don't dare touch the umbrella of a man who is harassing and abusing you. You shouldn't be out protesting and making a fuss just because your rights are being stripped away. Or because you are bleating on about the law again.

Men, you can threaten women as much as you like, just be careful she doesn't go to the media cause that'll cause us grief.

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selffellatingouroborosofhate · 07/11/2025 11:47

RoostingHens · 07/11/2025 07:47

The Equality Act requires single sex spaces where mixed sex would lead to women suffering detriment - which quite clearly a mixed sex would as was recognised in 1823. And where single sex it must be single sex. It can not be women and some men.

The fun part is proving the detriment in court.

ArabellaSaurus · 07/11/2025 11:41

This reply has been deleted

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

I have a feeling women are considered a special case, in that we are expected to uphold and abide by the law, but actions that disadvantage women are just to be borne uncomplainingly.

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RoyalCorgi · 07/11/2025 11:38

I don't get it. How can someone be given special dispensation to break the law?Is this a normal or usual thing? Why even would you want special dispensation in this case? How come you feel so strongly that men should be allowed in women's prison that you actually want to be allowed to break the law?

So many questions. I will never cease to be astounded at the idiocy of this ideology.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 07/11/2025 11:22

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

ArabellaSaurus · 07/11/2025 10:33

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68304818.amp

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RoostingHens · 07/11/2025 10:28

The EHRC can enforce (through the courts) but I don’t think they have much of a budget to do so anymore.

Breaching the EA is a civil offence. However there is a criminal offence within it - I think where someone knowingly makes false statements about the EA to encourage someone else to break it. Which would seem to me to be Stonewall and SNP ministers but I wasn’t very clear. Maybe someone else can clarify? I doubt the police would be interested as they would appear to have fallen foul of that too. So it would have to be a private prosecution but the CPS/PF can simply take over those and drop them.

ArabellaSaurus · 07/11/2025 10:03

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/11/2025 09:34

As far as I am aware the EHRC has enforcement powers but never seems to use them.

I think theyve used them in a handful of cases - sex harassment against McDonalds and anti gypsy/traveller discrimination at Butlins iirc, I'd need to check details

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/11/2025 09:34

As far as I am aware the EHRC has enforcement powers but never seems to use them.

waitam · 07/11/2025 09:27

Forgive me if I am ignorant of the facts.

If the EA is breached is that a criminal or civil offence, or any offence for that matter? The reason I ask (and I don't know...) is that it appears to me that it is not a criminal offence to break the EA law, therefore each individual or class/group detrimentally affected must take a case either to Tribunal or civil court.

As I said, I haven't a clue, I'm just musing, since it appears to me that breaching the EA is very easy for the "breacher" but very difficult for the "breached" to get redress.

If that is the case, it is surely not right, as getting redress is dependent on a person/organisation's etc. means to take it to law. What about Human Rights here?

Igneococcus · 07/11/2025 09:12

RoostingHens · 07/11/2025 08:06

The whole design of the Scottish Parliament is based around the need for coalitions with no clear winner. The idea being this requires a more consensus approach. One clear winner was never the intent of the designers (though the SNP have been a minority government for two cycles). The design has been a failure as it has allowed the SNP/Greens, with a Green presiding officer (voted on by MSPs so chosen by the parties in power) to avoid accountability in parliament and committees.

I know it was designed that way.
I don't mind coalitions per se, I grew up in a country that pretty much always has coalition governments but they require politicians with talent and maturity and the desire to make them work and I can honestly not see any of those at Holyrood at the moment (there are a fewer and fewer of them in my home country too).

AMansAManForAllThat · 07/11/2025 09:12

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 21:51

Your confusing them with TRA organisations and the millions they receive from governments, businesses and the likes of the Priztker family.

Fortunately FWS have the support of thousands of ordinary women willing to donate what they can afford.

Edited

To be strictly accurate, the government also has access to the pockets of thousands of ordinary women- and men- whether they are willing and can afford it or not!

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 07/11/2025 09:03

ArabellaSaurus · 07/11/2025 08:53

The SC judgement was very clear that if something is divided by sex, then it must be on the basis of biological sex. So if you have a women's prison, it must be for women only.

Otherwise, they will have to make all prisons mixed sex and have no segregation/discrimination at all.

That’s why this action seems so bizarre. It’s so simple. I presume they’re not arguing that they want to make all prisons mixed sex, in which case they are going to lose this case (presuming FWS don’t run out of money first, which may be what the Scottish Government are counting on)

ArabellaSaurus · 07/11/2025 08:57

nauticant · 06/11/2025 22:12

I honestly don't know. Some imaginary large constituency with insane views.

But to return to my question, what would winning look like for SG?

I wonder if they even know themselves? I feel that they're so entangled in so much bullshit, they can't see up for down. Everything is reactive, nothing is based in reality, and they are I assume lost in some weird internecine world of their own made out of handshakes, secrets, desperation, and avoidance.

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ArabellaSaurus · 07/11/2025 08:55

SammyScrounge · 07/11/2025 04:03

Scotland didn't. The SNP, led by Sturgeon, have been tangled up in gender politics for years, utterly determined to foist their agenda on Scots.

Thank you. The SNP/Scotgov does not represent the people of Scotland. I now consider it to be actively working against us.

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ArabellaSaurus · 07/11/2025 08:53

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 07/11/2025 03:14

The Equality Act doesn't oblige prisons to offer single-sex accommodation. It doesn't oblige single-sex services, it only permits them. The single-sex loos in schools requirement is not in EA either, it's in the Schools Premises (England) Regulations 2010 for England, not sure where for the devolved nations.

And yes, it's batshit that this is the case. Elizabeth Fry would not be pleased.

Unrelated: someone liking one of my posts has named herself after the Irish-Scouse public health shero Kitty Wilkinson. I approve.

Edited

The SC judgement was very clear that if something is divided by sex, then it must be on the basis of biological sex. So if you have a women's prison, it must be for women only.

Otherwise, they will have to make all prisons mixed sex and have no segregation/discrimination at all.

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INeedAPensieve · 07/11/2025 08:48

I don't know who to vote for either next May. It's a total mess.

I'm so angry with the SNP and all their shrilling allies. It just feels so dystopian; how much my government hates me and all other women who live in this country.

BundleBoogie · 07/11/2025 08:20

RoostingHens · 07/11/2025 07:47

The Equality Act requires single sex spaces where mixed sex would lead to women suffering detriment - which quite clearly a mixed sex would as was recognised in 1823. And where single sex it must be single sex. It can not be women and some men.

Yes, and someone, possibly Kemi Badenoch mentioned ages ago about the legal concept of ‘’where there is a right, there is a remedy’.

Meaning that for every legal right, there should be a corresponding legal remedy.

There are legal remedies that are applied for not providing single sex spaces (compulsion to provide, fines etc) so provision of single sex spaces is clearly recognised as a legal right and therefore must be provided.

Is my understanding as a non lawyer reading what expert lawyers have written.

RoostingHens · 07/11/2025 08:06

Igneococcus · 07/11/2025 07:52

I think we are going to end up with no clear winner and various coalition options and it's going to be one almighty mess.
I have no idea who I'm going to vote for come May, even my usual "who ever might have the slightest chance of getting the SNP out in my constituency" fallback is not really an option this time round.

The whole design of the Scottish Parliament is based around the need for coalitions with no clear winner. The idea being this requires a more consensus approach. One clear winner was never the intent of the designers (though the SNP have been a minority government for two cycles). The design has been a failure as it has allowed the SNP/Greens, with a Green presiding officer (voted on by MSPs so chosen by the parties in power) to avoid accountability in parliament and committees.

BundleBoogie · 07/11/2025 07:59

KittyWilkinson · 06/11/2025 13:41

Why don't they just put them in their own section in a men's prison?

There really is something seriously disturbing about these politicians relentlessly pushing for these men to be in women's prisons.

Edited

This is the thing. They already have the means to protect vulnerable male prisoners from the general prison population in make prisons.

What they don’t currently have is the means to protect the general female prison population from resident male prisoners without violating human rights laws on solitary confinement etc.

RoostingHens · 07/11/2025 07:59

I am always puzzled by the argument that the Equality Act 2010 doesn’t require people not to discriminate against women and girls.

Igneococcus · 07/11/2025 07:52

Needspaceforlego · 07/11/2025 03:27

I think they want out of goverment.
Tory are never going to win in Scotland.
Labour aren't exactly popular right now.

Are we going to end up with Reform?

I think we are going to end up with no clear winner and various coalition options and it's going to be one almighty mess.
I have no idea who I'm going to vote for come May, even my usual "who ever might have the slightest chance of getting the SNP out in my constituency" fallback is not really an option this time round.

RoostingHens · 07/11/2025 07:47

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 07/11/2025 03:14

The Equality Act doesn't oblige prisons to offer single-sex accommodation. It doesn't oblige single-sex services, it only permits them. The single-sex loos in schools requirement is not in EA either, it's in the Schools Premises (England) Regulations 2010 for England, not sure where for the devolved nations.

And yes, it's batshit that this is the case. Elizabeth Fry would not be pleased.

Unrelated: someone liking one of my posts has named herself after the Irish-Scouse public health shero Kitty Wilkinson. I approve.

Edited

The Equality Act requires single sex spaces where mixed sex would lead to women suffering detriment - which quite clearly a mixed sex would as was recognised in 1823. And where single sex it must be single sex. It can not be women and some men.