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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 03/11/2025 07:52

@YouCantProveIt

I think the education exception they are relying upon has to be founded on - we need to make up numbers in a small cohort year / course that isn’t full etc. It’s not carte blanche to say - men can come in is they have special paperwork.

It's unfortunate that there are no explanatory notes at all, but I think it must be wider than just making up numbers, as it covers things like mixed sixth forms and access to courses unavailable in a same-sex single-sex setting. The 'exceptionality' seems to be deliberately vague.

...that is as another poster said discriminatory to a group of men who don’t have special paperwork.

I disagree but will address in a separate post.

Namelessnelly · 03/11/2025 07:52

I love the fact men with a trans identity claim to be unsafe in male spaces. They’re not. They just want validation. They could go to any mixed sex college they wanted, but of course it has to be the female only one. It’s so annoying men won’t let women have anything for themselves. I think it’s a mix of male entitlement and narcissism.

Helleofabore · 03/11/2025 07:50

Howseitgoin · 03/11/2025 03:14

Yup, sounds like a clear cut case of 'misgendering':

https://www.cps.gov.uk/london-north/news/teenagers-jailed-transphobic-attack-harrow

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/02/brianna-ghey-murderers-named-sentenced-to-life-in-prison

Of course one can attempt to minimise violent abuse via semantics to wash the blood off the hands of gender critical ideology but as has been explained multiple times reporting is not the same as offending.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/57310/html/

If it were, we wouldn't put any stock in the suggestion that women don't report 90% of their rapes.

Readers note: No one is dismissing atrocious crimes are committed. The point of posting explanations about what ‘hate crime’ statistics measure is not dismissing horrific crimes.

In saying that though, if the immediate reaction to seeing exactly what is included in ‘hate crime’ statistics is to the mention extreme examples as if those thankfully very few examples somehow proved a pattern that supported the point you (general you) made, it shows how poorly supported that point is.

Yes, those horrific crimes happened. Of course, there is a huge depth of evidence that supports that female people need single sex provisions away from ALL male people. Which immediately contradicts the demand of a group of male people to access female single sex provisions.

Imagine if women could post overwhelming numbers of what could be considered ‘hate’ crimes against female people if there was such crime category. Maybe if we too could simply make such claims of ‘look at these hate crime statistics, we need protection’ these cyclical discussions about single sex provisions would end.

However, the collection of hate crime data for the group of male people who demand to be treated as if they are female is irrelevant as to whether female people should have single sex provisions that exclude that group of male people. That information is presented as an emotionally manipulative leverage. It is misused because those using it fail to mention all the crimes that fall under that category. The existance of those crimes are also irrelevant to female people’s needs.

Hate crime statistics are misleading for several reasons.

One because of the breadth of the category, it treats misgendering the same as murder. Because this hate crime data was not about proportionality, it was about adding a motivational aspect to any crime.

Another reason is because there is no comparative category for crimes committed against female people.

Another reason is because the protection of female people having single sex provision is not only, and was never only, based on safety from sex crimes and violent crimes. Although, that is part of it. That provision is also based on privacy and dignity and for allowing female people to continue to overcome a millennia of oppression based on our sex category.

If you see activists using hate crime against people with the philosophical belief they are transgender to support access to a single sex provision that is for the opposite sex to what a person’s body form materially is, it is good to understand exactly what that hate crime statistic includes, ie to support a male person getting access to a female single sex provision. Always drill down further.

Howseitgoin · 03/11/2025 07:50

Namelessnelly · 03/11/2025 07:37

I think that was last week. I think it depends what Andrew Tate has been peddling as I’m sure some of the opinions by one poster in particular are straight from the MRA playbook. I just love it when cowards who are too weak and scared to call out men for their bad behaviour decide to spend their time scolding women online instead. It’s getting boring now though. I think I’ll just stick to engaging with sane posters from now on.

Well folks, I gave it my best shot….🤪

Howseitgoin · 03/11/2025 07:47

ArabellaSaurus · 03/11/2025 07:26

'We are all victims of patriarchy including cis men'

Therefore, all spaces must be mixed sex? Dont be silly.

Haven't you even heard of equity?

Males are the larger, stronger, more violent sex, and commit virtually all sex crimes. Women also have the reproductive burden to contend with.

Men fighting each other is not our problem to solve.

"Therefore, all spaces must be mixed sex? Dont be silly."

The obtuseness is breathtaking. The point of feminism is to highlight how patriarchal expectations of gender harm society. Pointing only to trans people as the cause isn't helping educating men it distracts from it. Trans exclusion is a perfect illustration of how oppressive these expectations are of which gender ideology engages in.

No one is suggesting that this means all spaces should be mixed rather that gender isn't as rigid as patriarchy thinks therefore in some circumstances society should be organised to reflect that.

Namelessnelly · 03/11/2025 07:37

ArabellaSaurus · 03/11/2025 07:30

Oh, you're on about the 'nanny' state? I see. No equity, no feminism. Just a pure MRA supremacist. Well done mate. Are you going to start going on about pills, next?

I think that was last week. I think it depends what Andrew Tate has been peddling as I’m sure some of the opinions by one poster in particular are straight from the MRA playbook. I just love it when cowards who are too weak and scared to call out men for their bad behaviour decide to spend their time scolding women online instead. It’s getting boring now though. I think I’ll just stick to engaging with sane posters from now on.

Howseitgoin · 03/11/2025 07:32

Namelessnelly · 03/11/2025 07:19

So what makes you think they are feminists? And again, if men are vulnerable in male spaces, that’s on men. Not women. So go talk to your fellow men and sort it out. I suggest you use exactly the same tone and insults as you do on here. It’ll work wonders. They’ll soon see the error of their ways.

"So what makes you think they are feminists?"

Well they understand the basic premise & practically stand by it for starters.

"And again, if men are vulnerable in male spaces, that’s on men. Not women. "

There's this thing called the social contract you need to read up of which is the condition of social responsibility in exchange for social entitlements. IE the benefits of living in civilisation as opposed to the state of nature. You don't get to get protection from society if you aren't prepared to give it. (I can't actually believe I need to explain this but here we are…)

You know MRA's say the exact same thing about women requiring protection from men right? Oh wait…

ArabellaSaurus · 03/11/2025 07:30

Oh, you're on about the 'nanny' state? I see. No equity, no feminism. Just a pure MRA supremacist. Well done mate. Are you going to start going on about pills, next?

ArabellaSaurus · 03/11/2025 07:26

'We are all victims of patriarchy including cis men'

Therefore, all spaces must be mixed sex? Dont be silly.

Haven't you even heard of equity?

Males are the larger, stronger, more violent sex, and commit virtually all sex crimes. Women also have the reproductive burden to contend with.

Men fighting each other is not our problem to solve.

Namelessnelly · 03/11/2025 07:19

Howseitgoin · 03/11/2025 07:14

Newnham said it best:

"It is important to note, therefore, that colleges such as Newnham have a particular responsibility to transgender students, whose oppression within and without the University is inextricably tied to their gender. Any space advocating for the rights of women, or offering a space as respite from patriarchy, must acknowledge that trans women are more vulnerable to sexist violence & discrimination, due to which in the ways transphobia & misogyny intersect. This is known as transmisogyny."

Obsessive jumping at trans predatory shadows misses the whole point of spaces for respite from patriarchy. We are all victims of patriarchy including cis men. That message kinda gets lost in the incessant focus on the trivial like trans loo etiquette.

So what makes you think they are feminists? And again, if men are vulnerable in male spaces, that’s on men. Not women. So go talk to your fellow men and sort it out. I suggest you use exactly the same tone and insults as you do on here. It’ll work wonders. They’ll soon see the error of their ways.

Howseitgoin · 03/11/2025 07:14

Namelessnelly · 03/11/2025 07:01

Do how exactly are feminists saying they want women only spaces “perpetuating gender inequality”? Do tell. And please, no ChatGPT.

Newnham said it best:

"It is important to note, therefore, that colleges such as Newnham have a particular responsibility to transgender students, whose oppression within and without the University is inextricably tied to their gender. Any space advocating for the rights of women, or offering a space as respite from patriarchy, must acknowledge that trans women are more vulnerable to sexist violence & discrimination, due to which in the ways transphobia & misogyny intersect. This is known as transmisogyny."

Obsessive jumping at trans predatory shadows misses the whole point of spaces for respite from patriarchy. We are all victims of patriarchy including cis men. That message kinda gets lost in the incessant focus on the trivial like trans loo etiquette.

Namelessnelly · 03/11/2025 07:01

Howseitgoin · 03/11/2025 06:57

Who says I don't? Do you seriously believe Feminism MN is the only show in town?

The thing is gender critical ideology mirrors MRA's in terms of perpetuating gender inequality. They both need to be told to do better…& I here for it. 😁

Do how exactly are feminists saying they want women only spaces “perpetuating gender inequality”? Do tell. And please, no ChatGPT.

Howseitgoin · 03/11/2025 06:57

Namelessnelly · 03/11/2025 06:52

Tan. So you chose scolding? Why are you so afraid of going and telling men to do better? Is it because coming on an online forum scolding women is easier. Don’t forget to change your typing hand and antibac your keyboard and mouse. You don’t want wrist strain or any other disease.

Who says I don't? Do you seriously believe Feminism MN is the only show in town?

The thing is gender critical ideology mirrors MRA's in terms of perpetuating gender inequality. They both need to be told to do better…& I here for it. 😁

Namelessnelly · 03/11/2025 06:52

Howseitgoin · 03/11/2025 05:48

And yet another animal kingdom advocate who's spectacularly oblivious to how much women depend on the protections of the nanny state & by extension every other identity group they don't think they owe anything to…

Ignorance is bliss I suppose…

Tan. So you chose scolding? Why are you so afraid of going and telling men to do better? Is it because coming on an online forum scolding women is easier. Don’t forget to change your typing hand and antibac your keyboard and mouse. You don’t want wrist strain or any other disease.

Howseitgoin · 03/11/2025 05:48

Namelessnelly · 03/11/2025 05:44

And? That’s not women’s problem if men are attacking other men. I do assume you’re not including misgendering in the violent crimes lol. As I have said, if men are attacking other men for their gender presentation, that’s on men. Go take it up with men. Tell them to be more inclusive of men with a gender presentation. It’d be a much better use if your time than coming on here shouting at women wouldn’t it?

And yet another animal kingdom advocate who's spectacularly oblivious to how much women depend on the protections of the nanny state & by extension every other identity group they don't think they owe anything to…

Ignorance is bliss I suppose…

Namelessnelly · 03/11/2025 05:44

Howseitgoin · 02/11/2025 23:53

Because violent hate crimes have increased generally.

"2. Police recorded hate crime
Key results
in the year ending March 2023, there were 145,214 hate crimes recorded by the police in England and Wales (excluding Devon and Cornwall police[footnote 2]), a decrease of 5% from the year ending March 2022 (153,536 offences), the first fall since the comparable time series began in the year ending March 2013
prior to the fall seen this year, police recorded hate crime offences rose between the years ending 2013 and 2022; this prolonged period of increasing offences was thought to have been driven by improvements in crime recording by the police and better identification of what constitutes a hate crime
there were 101,906 race hate crimes, a fall of 6% from the previous year when there were 108,476 offences, this was driven by a decrease in racially or religiously aggravated public fear, alarm or distress offences
as in previous years, the majority of hate crimes were racially motivated, accounting for 7 in 10 of all such offences (70%; 101,906 offences)
religious hate crimes decreased by 4%, from 8,602 to 8,241 offences
sexual orientation hate crimes fell by 6%, to 24,102 offences, while transgender hate crimes increased by 11%, to 4,732 offences
disability hate crimes fell slightly (by 1%) compared with the previous year, at 13,777 offences
over half (51%) of the hate crimes recorded by the police were for public order offences, 41% were for violence against the person offences and 5% were recorded as criminal damage and arson offences

Transgender identity hate crimes rose by 11% (from 4,262 to 4,732) over the same period, the highest number since the time series began in the year ending March 2012. Transgender issues have been heavily discussed by politicians, the media and on social media over the last year, which may have led to an increase in these offences, or more awareness in the police in the identification and recording of these crimes.

Figure 2.8: Percentage of selected offences resulting in charge/summons, by hate crime strand, offences recorded in the year ending March 2023, England and Wales, 30 forces"

Source: Police recorded crime, Home Office Data Hub

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2022-to-2023/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2022-to-2023

And? That’s not women’s problem if men are attacking other men. I do assume you’re not including misgendering in the violent crimes lol. As I have said, if men are attacking other men for their gender presentation, that’s on men. Go take it up with men. Tell them to be more inclusive of men with a gender presentation. It’d be a much better use if your time than coming on here shouting at women wouldn’t it?

YouCantProveIt · 03/11/2025 05:15

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 03/11/2025 00:10

I don't know why perceptive and associative discrimination don't apply to marriage etc: it's just what the Act says.

Explanatory Note to Section 13:

59.Direct discrimination occurs where the reason for a person being treated less favourably than another is a protected characteristic listed in section 4. This definition is broad enough to cover cases where the less favourable treatment is because of the victim’s association with someone who has that characteristic (for example, is disabled), or because the victim is wrongly thought to have it (for example, a particular religious belief).
60.However, a different approach applies where the reason for the treatment is marriage or civil partnership, in which case only less favourable treatment because of the victim’s status amounts to discrimination. It must be the victim, rather than anybody else, who is married or a civil partner.

@theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw and @MyAmpleSheep

You are both giving me an education here and I’m working my way through the arguments. Thank you for intelligent debate (even if you both disagree on the intelligence of each others contribution) 😆

OP posts:
Howseitgoin · 03/11/2025 05:06

YouCantProveIt · 03/11/2025 05:01

I guess it would be more helpful if any of this had any relevance. But it doesn’t.

Ginger men may be more likely to be bullied because of their coloring.

Doesn’t mean they need to hide in women only spaces.

We aren’t running around playing mother to men who fetishise the very fact of being a woman.

By this animal kingdom logic the weaker aren't entitled to societal protections. And that's exactly why gender criticals mercifully don't speak for all women even if they pretend they do…

YouCantProveIt · 03/11/2025 05:01

Howseitgoin · 02/11/2025 13:32

This is an oversimplification.

Different groups of people violently offend at different rates. IE, Younger poorer heterosexual men offend at significantly higher rates than older, wealthier or homosexual men. Lesbian women offend at significantly higher rates than heterosexual women. In fact studies show that lesbian women violently offend at higher rates than gay men. Should the college therefore be refusing to admit lesbians?

In any case, given the minuscule trans woman population 0.5%, numbers are statistically insignificant to make any conclusions. And it's not as if th college can't individually risk assess applicants.

I guess it would be more helpful if any of this had any relevance. But it doesn’t.

Ginger men may be more likely to be bullied because of their coloring.

Doesn’t mean they need to hide in women only spaces.

We aren’t running around playing mother to men who fetishise the very fact of being a woman.

OP posts:
YouCantProveIt · 03/11/2025 04:57

All people are safer among women. We are safer for men and men who identify as trans.

Doesn’t mean we have to lose the benefits of our protected characteristic of sex to play ‘mother’ to a bunch of effeminate men who want to be women.

No one signed up for that task.

OP posts:
YouCantProveIt · 03/11/2025 04:51

Justme56 · 02/11/2025 10:29

Not disagreeing on this, just pointing out that they could also be discriminating against biological females who have changed all their documents to male (certificated sex = male but biological sex = female).

I haven’t read the full thread but as they are men they get admitted since formerly single sex Newnham admits men. 🤣

Perhaps indirect discrimination as a female because they produce their GRC as a male but that isn’t considered valid paperwork. But they can of course produce their birth certificate showing they are female.

The rule seems to be as long as you show us any paperwork at all that you have been a lady / want to be a laydee we will let you in.

So really someone with best case is a bio male or indeed a bio male transitioning to female without any paperwork. It’s actually discriminating against men who don’t have female certificated sex documents.

OP posts:
YouCantProveIt · 03/11/2025 04:44

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 02/11/2025 10:28

And, to complete my wall of posts.....

The instrument establishing Newnham as a college 'for women' was ratified by the King in 1917 and has the force of law against the college administration. I find it hard to believe that the college statutes expressly permit admission of male undergraduates at all. Maybe someone who is a lawyer and/or a member of the college can put me right on this?

I think the education exception they are relying upon has to be founded on - we need to make up numbers in a small cohort year / course that isn’t full etc.

It’s not carte blanche to say - men can come in is they have special paperwork. That is as another poster said - discriminatory to a group of men who don’t have special paperwork.

I would have to take a read of it. But I wonder how they intend to comply with single sex spaces (changing rooms, toilets etc).

I also wonder whether it would need to be a man who raises a claim for discrimination.

I read that approx 21,000 apply to Cambridge each year and only 3.000 get in. So surely that’s an angle for an aspiring male lawyer to raise an issue / get credibility…. 🤷‍♀️

OP posts:
Howseitgoin · 03/11/2025 04:32

Howseitgoin · 03/11/2025 04:19

"Does it not occur to you that ^ may be better informed than you?"^

It appears decidedly not according to the horses mouth:

"It is important to note, therefore, that colleges such as Newnham have a particular responsibility to transgender students, whose oppression within and without the University is inextricably tied to their gender. Any space advocating for the rights of women, or offering a space as respite from patriarchy, must acknowledge that trans women are more vulnerable to sexist violence & discrimination, due to which in the ways transphobia & misogyny intersect. This is known as transmisogyny."

Smoking gun:
https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/16843/pdf/

Edited

I mean, how clueless are gender critical 'feminists' on feminism that they don't even comprehend the most basic tenets about it?

Howseitgoin · 03/11/2025 04:19

DustyWindowsills · 03/11/2025 03:29

Does it not occur to you that @bymyleftelbow may be better informed than you?

The college supervision is for females only

You keep using that word ... Supervisions are tutorials. They are organised by the director of studies using a pool of expertise from across the university, and very often take place in other colleges or in the supervisor's own home.

It's not about safety. I can assure you that the college system does not protect students from sexual violence. The continuing value of Newnham is that it is able to provide a nurturing environment for young women who - for one reason or another - need help adjusting to mixed-sex education. They will be supported by a female tutor and usually a female director of studies (depending on the subject). I don't see how that would help trans identifying male students, who may be better served in a mixed-sex college with specialist help.

"Does it not occur to you that ^ may be better informed than you?"^

It appears decidedly not according to the horses mouth:

"It is important to note, therefore, that colleges such as Newnham have a particular responsibility to transgender students, whose oppression within and without the University is inextricably tied to their gender. Any space advocating for the rights of women, or offering a space as respite from patriarchy, must acknowledge that trans women are more vulnerable to sexist violence & discrimination, due to which in the ways transphobia & misogyny intersect. This is known as transmisogyny."

Smoking gun:
https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/16843/pdf/

DustyWindowsills · 03/11/2025 03:29

Howseitgoin · 03/11/2025 02:30

The college accommodation & supervision is for females only. That's part of the reason why it's designated as female. If there were no female only spaces it would hardly qualify as a female college. The female students are hardly at risk of sexual violence in classrooms or busy common areas of the university. Nor are employees likely to pose a risk. I don't believe for one second males can just saunter into dorm rooms & wander unimpeded without any kind of notification.

Exactly why would Sex Matters be so incensed if there was no exclusive female experience since their whole alleged raison d'etre is women's safety?

You're grasping at straws here.

Does it not occur to you that @bymyleftelbow may be better informed than you?

The college supervision is for females only

You keep using that word ... Supervisions are tutorials. They are organised by the director of studies using a pool of expertise from across the university, and very often take place in other colleges or in the supervisor's own home.

It's not about safety. I can assure you that the college system does not protect students from sexual violence. The continuing value of Newnham is that it is able to provide a nurturing environment for young women who - for one reason or another - need help adjusting to mixed-sex education. They will be supported by a female tutor and usually a female director of studies (depending on the subject). I don't see how that would help trans identifying male students, who may be better served in a mixed-sex college with specialist help.