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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Livestream debate with Mia Hughes and Morgane Oger

233 replies

unwashedanddazed · 24/10/2025 01:27

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WewreIEBhe4

Only heard a few minutes so far. My he has a deep voice!

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WewreIEBhe4

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WandaSiri · 24/10/2025 12:32

Helleofabore · 24/10/2025 09:59

https://gendercriticalwoman.blog/2022/08/03/morgan-page-stonewall-ambassador/

I think you may mean Morgan Page. Another bloke who disrespects female people.

Thanks!

JamieCannister · 24/10/2025 12:09

Theeyeballsinthesky · 24/10/2025 07:57

ah Howse you're back, get bored on Reddit did you?

and honestly lovey you've jumped the shark with this one. Morganes been putting himself out there for years as a TRA. He would find it very sad times indeed that you're not aware of his stirling efforts. I mean call yourself a trans supporter Howse and you don't know that he managed to get a rape crisis centres funding cancelled?? Sad times indeed!

and if you genuinely think Morgane's is a woman then you'd better go to spec savers

[Warning - I might be showing my prejudices against a style of music and the people who play it in this post]

Is it me or is there something about many middle-aged, likely-paraphilic men who claim to be women? Do they often look exactly like the sort of weird-looking man who, back in the 1980s, had one hope in life as far as women go other than to grow his hair, put on a leather jacket, and get on stage as part of a metal band?

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 24/10/2025 11:54

GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 08:43

TRAs who declare that sex is just a vague esssnce are unerringly able to identify men when deciding who to support.

Absolutely how is unfailing in that regard

Lovelyview · 24/10/2025 11:40

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 08:18

You aren't listening. Trans women are considered as women under the law in Canada & many other countries as Morgane explained was by decades of legislative progress. While you might believe them to be men is simply an opinion so your 'misogyny' claims don't necessarily apply outside your own jurisdiction.

The arrogance of your attempted imposition of cultural superiority is breathtaking …but certainly not surprising.

You aren't listening. As @nauticant said. 'Then how come in the case of Kimberly Nixon, Vancouver Rape Relief won at both the British Columbia Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court of Canada in being allowed to exclude him from working at the service as a counsellor?
Even in Canada, some forms of discrimination against trans people are permitted by the law.'

Do you think women shouldn't have the right to discuss their sex-based trauma away from men? Sex, not gender.

Helleofabore · 24/10/2025 11:33

Oger's answer above is so me me me me me!

It shows very little curiosity or concern about children's experiences at all. And yet claims to be the voice of authority.

It doesn't at all address the lack of evidence. It is remarkable to see the differences in this debate.

Helleofabore · 24/10/2025 11:29

Here is some more of transcript.

Question: I think in your opening statements you went straight for I think within within the first two minutes maybe you mentioned the Cass review and a bunch of medical literature and studies, and I think that's very important. Because that's what's at the crux of this …ultimately the claim that I've heard about trans becoming trans and gender ideology identity is that there is a mental health crisis and people need gender affirming care to resolve that. And so given that trans identifying people and people who have gone through this program still exhibit three or four times more anxiety and depression than cisgender people, and they are they have a chance of one in three, I believe, of or or it's one in three, have attempted suicide is the statistic, so given that mental health and mental illness still persists, how can we determine this to be the correct course of action in treating the underlying problem.

Mia Hughes: Yeah, we do have a a serious lack of followup research with individuals who've gone through this medical pathway. So it's a it's a remarkable field of medicine and that they perform interventions that have lifelong effects and then they don't bother to follow up at all.

So the limited research that we have short term can show some mental health benefits. There's a honeymoon period typically and then longer term will show higher rates of suicide and mental health issues. So there's not any clear evidence that it improves mental health. The research in the field is weak anyway. So whatever you want to, whatever, when you turn to the research, you don't typically get answers because it's methodologically poor.

But I think what you need to … transgender people, this community is so lump. … It's all lumped together, but it's a very diverse group and it depends what the person's reason for seeking medical transition and the outcome is going to be very different. I personally have not seen any evidence to suggest that this is safe, beneficial in the long term or in any way an appropriate way to treat individuals with a psychological issue. If that answers to your question.

Morgane Oger: Well, I've actually gone through transition, so I have some actual firsthand experience and knowledge and I've spoken to a great many trans people both as an advocate and also in crisis situations and in very challenging legal situations. Here are my observations. On the personal note, I have really noticed that when you're thinking about transitioning, you are thinking about how you can't live like you're living anymore and you… and one day you decide I can't do this anymore and it's really interesting. So, but I transitioned as an adult, okay? I was in my 40s. Many reasons for that. We can have a huge conversation about it. Mostly it was because I never saw room for myself before.

Um I couldn't live like that anymore. That was like the an… the mindset. But at the same time, I was so afraid of what was going to happen because I could see what the world around me was like somewhat hostile. That thing was, you know, somewhere between quite hostile and immensely hostile. If you don't want, if you want to know where the hostility is, go on Twitter and read the comments to me about this event.

Okay. And then read the comments to me about me saying something about that Charlie Kirk guy, right? And just have a look at this at the hostility. Uh cis women also deal with a lot of hostility. Fascinating the hostility towards trans people. Trans women maybe sometimes a surprise that it's going to be that actually seeing hostility towards women. So that's …

Moderator: Can I ask you to bring us back to the question about comorbidities?

Morgane Oger: I am actually.

Moderator: Okay, good.

Morgane Oger: Because people transition because they can't live the way they're living and then they're afraid of how they're going to be treated. And often they're treated worse than they thought they would be treated and they might feel that they if they made it a medical transition, they might feel that they've committed to something they can't roll back. And some people start to realize, my goodness, this is not, this aspect is making my life even harder because people are so awful to me.

Everybody who has experienced discrimination, I think, knows what I'm talking about that life can be just awful from discrimination or from the perceived expectation of discrimination. And some people start to react to the intensity of the negativity in a downward spiral. And I have seen this for some people do this. Um, however, I've also seen that statistically, uh, I very few, not very few, a minority, like less than one tenth of people I know have have expressed to me that their lives were worse except for the social aspects of their lives, the way they are treated, the way they are looked at and things like this.

And when I speak with mental health specialists about the phenomenon, the phenomenon that we kind of land on, isn't that the core morbidities were necessarily the same. So we're when we're talking about why, why mental health degrades for trans people, it comes from societal injury basically.

And then the question is and has been a really interesting question for a long long time which is, do we treat, do we deny treatment that will make lives better to a degree? Do we deny those people treatment if they have comorbidity? Do we say, you can't because you're limping, and you can't because you're on the spectrum, and you can't because you're, uh because of you know, whatever things, and and and the mental health providers they struggle with this. Because there's a vast difference between being on the spectrum and having psychotic episodes.

Moderator: Yeah. I'm going to cut you off just because I see the line is long.

timesublimelysilencesthewhys · 24/10/2025 11:25

I agree hows mentioned maya for the responses.

But it is confusing how, on one hand, trans say woman, girl, female has nothing to do with sex, and then, on the other, talk about how their experiences map onto biology of women. Men will say transition gives them a second pubery- therefore they are girls, or because they dont menstruate are post menopausal women.

AelitaQueenofMars · 24/10/2025 11:07

HipTightOnions · 24/10/2025 10:22

I wonder if you have some sort of perception disorder, Howse? Maya looks nothing like a man.

it would explain why you have to rely on “surface level typical associations”, while the rest of us do not.

Oh I don’t believe for a minute he actually thinks Maya looks like a man at all. There’s no rational thought evident at all. He’s just enjoying the attention.

Justme56 · 24/10/2025 10:54

I don’t think MO has any worries on the sex by deception front, no matter what gender journey he’s been on.

eatfigs · 24/10/2025 10:54

MassiveWordSalad · 24/10/2025 10:31

Thanks @Helleofabore for the transcriptions.

Oh the irony of Morgan’s Ogre’s tshirt slogan “Behold better living through science” 🙄

And Howsitgoing just keeps ramping up the misogyny, what the actual fuck ⬇️

“I know plenty of cis women who particularly as they age could pass for unmedicalised trans women. Maya Forstater types come to mind. Perhaps that's why she's so 'defensive' about female stereotypes?”

If you’re secretly gender critical Howse and just trying to make TRAs look bad, you’re taking it too far now pal.

Howse is trolling again, he likes to pop up in threads early on so he can divert the conversation towards whatever misogynistic bullshit of the day he's decided to shovel in.

FrippEnos · 24/10/2025 10:53

@Howseitgoin

What rights do trans people not have?

Greyskybluesky · 24/10/2025 10:47

Mia's opening statement is magnificent. It says it all. It has everything. I am in awe.

AuthorisedCat · 24/10/2025 10:45

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 08:22

Of course it won't to you. It's built into the colonial mind to be in denial of the consequences of their actions.

Colonization is a bad thing. No males colonizing female spaces.

eatfigs · 24/10/2025 10:41

Not watched it all yet but impression so far is he's getting all the usual male-centred transactivist tropes in, and Mia is swatting them away easily.

MassiveWordSalad · 24/10/2025 10:31

Thanks @Helleofabore for the transcriptions.

Oh the irony of Morgan’s Ogre’s tshirt slogan “Behold better living through science” 🙄

And Howsitgoing just keeps ramping up the misogyny, what the actual fuck ⬇️

“I know plenty of cis women who particularly as they age could pass for unmedicalised trans women. Maya Forstater types come to mind. Perhaps that's why she's so 'defensive' about female stereotypes?”

If you’re secretly gender critical Howse and just trying to make TRAs look bad, you’re taking it too far now pal.

Helleofabore · 24/10/2025 10:26

I think we have had yet another demonstration too that there are some people who really cannot correctly identify the sex of a person and that they believe that their experience is the universal experience.

HipTightOnions · 24/10/2025 10:22

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 09:06

I know plenty of cis women who particularly as they age could pass for unmedicalised trans women. Maya Forstater types come to mind. Perhaps that's why she's so 'defensive' about female stereotypes?

I wonder if you have some sort of perception disorder, Howse? Maya looks nothing like a man.

it would explain why you have to rely on “surface level typical associations”, while the rest of us do not.

Helleofabore · 24/10/2025 10:20

Here is Mia Hughes' opening statement:

start

Mia Hughes: So the topic of this evening's event is gender identity, the evidence and the impact. In 2002, the Northwest Territories became the first jurisdiction in Canada to add gender identity to its Human Rights Act. Unbeknownst to Canadians, that was the moment our nation began its descent into chaos, when the most basic facts about human existence began to be dismantled. and the sex-based protections of women and girls started to crumble.

Over the next 15 years, every province and territory added gender identity to human rights codes despite having no clear definition of what the term means. In 2017, the federal government brought the era to a close with Bill C16, adding gender identity and gender expression to the Canadian Human Rights Act and the Criminal Code. Along the way, no law maker paused to ask what would happen if a self-declared identity with no objective measures became a protected characteristic in Canadian law. No one considered how it
might affect the rights of women and girls.

When objections were raised, they were ignored or dismissed as hate and bigotry. It's astounding to me that gender identity was enshrined in federal law without ever being defined. Neither Bill C16 nor the amen the amendments that followed supplied a definition, leaving policy makers and courts tribunals to rely on provincial codes or federal departments for a definition.

One such definition is that of the Department of Justice, which I'll read to you now in full. Brace yourselves.

The Department of Justice Canada defines gender identity as each each person's internal and individual experience of gender, their sense of being a woman, a man, both, neither, or anywhere along the gender spectrum. For some persons, their gender identity is different from the gender typically associated with their sex assigned at birth. This is often described as transgender or simply trans.

This is incoherent activist gibberish, an unscientific, unfalsifiable concept with no objective criteria or legal clarity. By contrast, every other protected characteristic in Canada, such as sex, race, age, sexual orientation is objective, objectively verifiable and clearly defined.

So what happens when you structure society around subjective feelings rather than material reality? You erode the vital safeguards that depend on reality, namely the sex-based protections essential to the privacy, safety, and protection of women and girls. Because in truth, gender identity as a protected characteristic permits any male to self-declare a female gender identity and access female only spaces.

This is astonishing when you consider that male people commit most sex offences and female people make up most of their victims. In Canadian prisons, inmates now have the option to be housed based on self-declared gender identity. And this policy has allowed violent male criminals, including those convicted of murder and sexual assault, to transfer into the female estate.

In women's shelters, rape crisis centers, and hospital wards, women in states of extreme vulnerability find themselves forced to share intimate spaces with males. And in everyday self-p policing spaces such as bathrooms and changing rooms, women must accept the presence of men. Knowing that questioning or challenging a man's self-declared female identity could be considered discrimination or hate. The fact of the matter is the two protected characteristics, sex and gender identity, cannot coexist.

It's not logically possible to protect both. Instead, it's a zero sum situation. Protecting one inevitably nullifies the other.

But tonight, I'll also argue that the concept of a gender identity is a dangerous oversimplification. One that ultimately does more harm than good even to those who identify as transgender because it it condenses a complex array of psychological, developmental, and social phenomena into one single label.

Within this category, there are adult males with an erotic fixation on being female, homosexuals with internalized homophobia, adolescence with neurodeiversity, psychiatric comorbidities, or developmental confusion. All adopting a one-size-fits-all label that comes with a drastic medical pathway as a remedy. Which brings me to another downstream effect of giving gender identity legitimacy in law that rarely gets mentioned.

Once cemented into our human rights code, the concept was then able to migrate into our schools. Children as young as kindergarten… children as young as kindergarten…. in kindergarten who still believe in Father Christmas are told that they have gender identities that they can choose whether they're boys or girls. There are posters adorning classrooms that declare there can be male women, female men, humans of both sexes or no sex at all. And this is not presented to children as a belief or a political ideology but a scientific fact. And no one responsible for safeguarding stopped to question what would be the consequences of untethering an entire generation of children from reality.

From our vantage point in 2025, the catastrophic effects are undeniable. We now have legions of confused young people thinking they have a mismatched gender identity and therefore need body parts chopped off who find themselves in the hands of a field of medicine also affected by gender identity being enshrined into our law. Because in 2021, our government further entrenched the concept with the passage of Bill C4, the so-called conversion therapy ban that forbids efforts to help distressed youth reconcile with their sex and avert the need for medical intervention.

So, I've often asked myself, you know, how could no one foresee the absolute chaos on the horizon? But Sheri Denovo, the NDP MPP, who introduced gender identity into Ontario's human rights code in 2012, actually provides the answer in 2021 in her 2021 memoir, noting how her private members bill impacted the way our entire province did business. She had this to say.

I don't believe for an instant that the government realized the scope of that one change. I'm glad they didn't look too closely.

That candid admission captures the very essence of the problem. Gender identity entered Canadian law not through rigorous analysis or scientific validation, but through political momentum and moral enthusiasm. Lawmakers did not ask what the concept meant, what it how it would interact with sex-based rights, or what downstream effects the it might have on policy coherence or child safeguarding. So, here we are more than a decade later, finally having the conversation that should have happened before gender identity was written into law. And because we're doing it backwards, there are those who frame even asking questions or raising concerns as discrimination or hate.

Which brings me to my final point. Adding gender identity as a protected characteristic in law hasn't just conflicted with the rights of women and girls and and the right of children to a childhood grounded in truth. It also conflicts with the fundamental rights enshrined in our charter of rights and freedoms because everyone is expected to believe or pretend to believe in a person's self-declared gender identity or risk being accused of hate and discrimination.

Now, don't get me wrong, everyone in a free democratic society is entitled to hold any belief that they choose. If someone wishes to believe that they possess a gender identity that doesn't match their sexed body, that's their right.

But what many people seem to have forgotten is that with freedom of belief comes the freedom not to believe.

So I'm going to lay my cards on the table and say that I do not believe in the existence of gender identities and I won't pretend that I do. And I also make no apologies for that because non-belief is not discrimination and non-belief is not hate. The right to question, to disagree, even to offend is the bedrock of democracy. And so for the sake of women's rights, child protection, and medical safeguarding, it's essential that we now have this gender identity debate openly, honestly, and without fear.

Greyskybluesky · 24/10/2025 10:18

"Trans" and "Kiss" 😄

TWETMIRF · 24/10/2025 10:15

Greyskybluesky · 24/10/2025 09:24

In my world, CIS written in capitals means Commonwealth of Independent States. I snigger every time the poster writes it like that.

#boringfact

It's Construction Industry Scheme to me. It also annoys me that cis is pronounced as sis, the Romans pronounced c as k and it's their language.

CarDoorWillySlam · 24/10/2025 10:14

Morgane is a cruel sexist man

Hateful man. Originally encouraged Yaniv (back in 2016, 2017?) until JY went way too far and MO had to distance himself. Because MO wanted to go into politics.

DialSquare · 24/10/2025 10:01

Helleofabore · 24/10/2025 09:59

https://gendercriticalwoman.blog/2022/08/03/morgan-page-stonewall-ambassador/

I think you may mean Morgan Page. Another bloke who disrespects female people.

There’s just so many of them.

KnottyAuty · 24/10/2025 10:00

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 08:33

Social distinctions are material reality. We rarely distinguish men from women using gametal evaluations in our everyday social interactions, rather surface level typical associations.

If only that were true.
Being biologically female still defines how women are treated in society. How they are spoken to, promoted, respected, ignored, minimised. That’s why feminists had to stress for years that women could do as men could in many aspects of life. Minimising sex differences was essential for female emancipation - so it’s exceptionally cruel for the gender self ID brigade to now say - well if there’s no difference then a man can be a woman. The cruelty being because sex discrimination hasn’t even been eliminated. And now (some) men have an excuse to eliminate the very things that women worked for to have for themselves. It’s not like all men wanted rape crisis centres and provided them for women - women set them up and had to fight against the men who said they shouldn’t have them. Those men were historically on the right side of politics. Ironically now it is the men on the left who seek to destroy those women’s services - why don’t they set up their own services? Let’s call him for what he is - Morgane is a cruel sexist man

WandaSiri · 24/10/2025 09:56

Morgan Oger of cotton ceiling workshop notoriety?