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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Great Feminization Thesis

58 replies

UtopiaPlanitia · 20/10/2025 16:20

I came across this article today. I’m reading my way through it and thought it might be of interest to FWR. I’m not sure what I think of the argument that’s being made (I think it might be a generational issue rather than a sex-based difference that’s causing this) but it’s worth engaging with the article to see if a coherent case can be made for the thesis.

Excerpt below to give a flavour of the article:

https://www.compactmag.com/article/the-great-feminization/

'Cancel culture is simply what women do whenever there are enough of them in a given organization or field. That is the Great Feminization thesis, which the same author later elaborated upon at book length: Everything you think of as “wokeness” is simply an epiphenomenon of demographic feminization.

The explanatory power of this simple thesis was incredible. It really did unlock the secrets of the era we are living in. Wokeness is not a new ideology, an outgrowth of Marxism, or a result of post-Obama disillusionment. It is simply feminine patterns of behavior applied to institutions where women were few in number until recently. How did I not see it before?

Possibly because, like most people, I think of feminization as something that happened in the past before I was born. When we think about women in the legal profession, for example, we think of the first woman to attend law school (1869), the first woman to argue a case before the Supreme Court (1880), or the first female Supreme Court Justice (1981).

A much more important tipping point is when law schools became majority female, which occurred in 2016, or when law firm associates became majority female, which occurred in 2023. When Sandra Day O’Connor was appointed to the high court, only 5 percent of judges were female. Today women are 33 percent of the judges in America and 63 percent of the judges appointed by President Joe Biden.

The same trajectory can be seen in many professions: a pioneering generation of women in the 1960s and ’70s; increasing female representation through the 1980s and ’90s; and gender parity finally arriving, at least in the younger cohorts, in the 2010s or 2020s.'

The Great Feminization

In 2019, I read an article about Larry Summers and Harvard that changed the way I look at the world.

https://www.compactmag.com/article/the-great-feminization/

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SionnachRuadh · 22/10/2025 23:06

Oh fuck no, I am not reading Cathy Young for a rational take on this.

Imnobody4 · 22/10/2025 22:45

A critique of the theory.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/right-grand-unified-theory-blame-women-helen-andrews-great-feminization

The Right’s New Grand Unified Theory: Blame Women for Everything

www.thebulwark.com/p/right-grand-unified-theory-blame-women-helen-andrews-great-feminization

THE [LATEST INTELLECTUAL BUZZ]is about a Compact magazine essay that boils down to ‘Women ruin everything.’ —is, you could say, the modern-day equivalent of sixteenth-century Scottish preacher John Knox’s celebrated polemic. The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstruous Regiment of Women*. But where Knox inveighed against what he saw as unnatural rule by female monarchs, Andrews has a much broader target: the rise in female political and social power in Western societies.

The Right’s New Grand Unified Theory: Blame Women for Everything

Helen Andrews’s latest screed is short on rational facts, long on mushy feelings of misogyny.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/right-grand-unified-theory-blame-women-helen-andrews-great-feminization

Imnobody4 · 22/10/2025 22:36

Howseitgoin · 22/10/2025 21:56

I agree we as a species require numerous skills to support survival that's why we are complex adaptable creatures but that doesn't change the fact that crucial to survival is reproduction. All the resource acquirement in the world is of zero importance if the species doesn't replicate.

Now listen, that's not to say females are doomed to being limited by their evolutionary roots. Far from it.

There's a very interesting study on Rhesus monkey's MRA's just love to tell you about you have probably heard where the male & female monkeys were given 'gendered toys' dolls & trucks. Much was made about how the male monkeys exclusively played with the trucks but the females didn't. What they don't like to tell you about is how the female monkeys split their time 50 50 which points to multi skilling of females.

MRA's also make great hay out of women being more likely to be employed in 'caring' professions like nursing & teaching as opposed to more 'technical/thing' based jobs . What they don't seem to understand is both teaching & nursing require elements of both.

All this is to say, 'evo devo' isn't the devil to women's rights you think it is & in fact supports it.

Edited

Now listen, that's not to say males are doomed to being limited by their evolutionary roots. Far from it. They can become fully functioning human beings, maybe even active fathers.

Howseitgoin · 22/10/2025 21:56

Imnobody4 · 22/10/2025 21:39

The continuation of the species requires the ability to adapt to build shelters, understand and exploit the environment etc etc.
The knowledge and skills necessary to send people into space has nothing to do with reproduction. Women are whole complex unique individuals.

I agree we as a species require numerous skills to support survival that's why we are complex adaptable creatures but that doesn't change the fact that crucial to survival is reproduction. All the resource acquirement in the world is of zero importance if the species doesn't replicate.

Now listen, that's not to say females are doomed to being limited by their evolutionary roots. Far from it.

There's a very interesting study on Rhesus monkey's MRA's just love to tell you about you have probably heard where the male & female monkeys were given 'gendered toys' dolls & trucks. Much was made about how the male monkeys exclusively played with the trucks but the females didn't. What they don't like to tell you about is how the female monkeys split their time 50 50 which points to multi skilling of females.

MRA's also make great hay out of women being more likely to be employed in 'caring' professions like nursing & teaching as opposed to more 'technical/thing' based jobs . What they don't seem to understand is both teaching & nursing require elements of both.

All this is to say, 'evo devo' isn't the devil to women's rights you think it is & in fact supports it.

thecatfromneptune · 22/10/2025 21:48

The argument of this article is just misogynistic nonsense. It sounds plausible, but it’s merely speculation with not much evidence to back it up. It’s also extremely reductive and generalising.

Cloudeee · 22/10/2025 21:46

“Cancel culture” is all new and the fault of us women is it? 🙄

what did we call it when men in the past didn’t like someone so had their head chopped off?

thecatfromneptune · 22/10/2025 21:46

SionnachRuadh · 20/10/2025 20:08

I'm also in some of those interest and hobby spaces, and... let's say it's an interesting experience.

I will give them the argument that a lot of genre writing is poor nowadays and crammed full of "The Message" (TM Critical Drinker) but badly-written stories and films are not the result of women being given creative roles in greater numbers they're the fault of studio/publishing execs' poor hiring decisions and an inability to understand what the audience finds interesting.

I agree with this. One thing I've been asking myself in recent years is, why is Phoebe Waller-Bridge in everything? I think it's part of a Hollywood tradition where they fall in love with a British comedian, spend a lot of money to bring them to America, and then don't really know what to do with them. See also the Hollywood careers of Dudley Moore, Ricky Gervais, Russell Brand...

I don't mind PWB. I think she's a talented writer and performer. But what she excels in is female-centric observational comedy. So naturally they put her to work on Star Wars, James Bond, Indiana Jones and Lara Croft. I can't think of brands less suited to her talents.

She'd be really good at writing romantic comedies, but for some inexplicable reason they don't make romcoms any more. The studios have put all their eggs into the superhero monogenre basket, then filled those films with unappealing girlboss characters and themes, and ended up satisfying nobody.

And, as Drinker often says, even the hamfisted attempts to be feminist don't appeal to women. Why do we watch Thor movies? To see Chris Hemsworth, preferably with his shirt off, being a masculine hero who saves the day. Not to see him being made the butt of the joke in his own movie.

Not a feminist conspiracy. Much more to do with corporate bosses who have run out of talent and ideas, and lost touch with what audiences want.

Regarding Phoebe W-B — she’s just well-off and well-connected!

Howseitgoin · 22/10/2025 21:42

Imnobody4 · 22/10/2025 21:07

Actually the mind/brain evolved
for survival. What develops the brain is a complex interaction between environment, individual genetics and culture.
This article is just the evo-devo just so story with a new woke twist.

"This article is just the evo-devo just so story with a new woke twist."

Look, I totally appreciate "evo-devo" being weaponised against women by the New Right. But by the same token, MRA's weaponise 'socialisation' theory as well when they are only to quick to tell you if it weren't for feminism 'brain washing' women into ambition, women would still be 'contented care takers'.

Bottom line, either way, perceiving women as 'programable robots' at the mercy of culture sans autonomy kinda smells like textbook sexism.

Imnobody4 · 22/10/2025 21:39

Howseitgoin · 22/10/2025 21:11

Survival kinda entails the continuation of the species & that's always been a constant regardless of the environment.

The continuation of the species requires the ability to adapt to build shelters, understand and exploit the environment etc etc.
The knowledge and skills necessary to send people into space has nothing to do with reproduction. Women are whole complex unique individuals.

Howseitgoin · 22/10/2025 21:11

Imnobody4 · 22/10/2025 21:07

Actually the mind/brain evolved
for survival. What develops the brain is a complex interaction between environment, individual genetics and culture.
This article is just the evo-devo just so story with a new woke twist.

Survival kinda entails the continuation of the species & that's always been a constant regardless of the environment.

Imnobody4 · 22/10/2025 21:07

Howseitgoin · 22/10/2025 20:56

That the body evolved for reproduction & the mind didn't seems naive at best.

Actually the mind/brain evolved
for survival. What develops the brain is a complex interaction between environment, individual genetics and culture.
This article is just the evo-devo just so story with a new woke twist.

Howseitgoin · 22/10/2025 20:56

newrubylane · 22/10/2025 20:54

The thing is, a lot of those apparently 'feminine' behaviours might stem from female socialisation to be gentle, kind, caregiving - all of which is a direct result of patriarchy. They're not inherently female behaviours. So if their evaluation of wokeness is correct I you could suggest that it is because socialisation hasn't kept up with the progress of legal/financial/workplace equality. That's assuming we take those feminine behaviours to be negative, of course .

Not saying I agree with their take on wokeness; I actually think the generational argument may hold more water. Either case would really require more investigation to prove though.

Ironically the start of the article predicates the beginning of wokeness on the idea that women didn't like being told they were 'naturally' inherently weaker and less capable than men. It's logic is rather circular on that score.

That the body evolved for reproduction & the mind didn't seems naive at best.

newrubylane · 22/10/2025 20:54

The thing is, a lot of those apparently 'feminine' behaviours might stem from female socialisation to be gentle, kind, caregiving - all of which is a direct result of patriarchy. They're not inherently female behaviours. So if their evaluation of wokeness is correct I you could suggest that it is because socialisation hasn't kept up with the progress of legal/financial/workplace equality. That's assuming we take those feminine behaviours to be negative, of course .

Not saying I agree with their take on wokeness; I actually think the generational argument may hold more water. Either case would really require more investigation to prove though.

Ironically the start of the article predicates the beginning of wokeness on the idea that women didn't like being told they were 'naturally' inherently weaker and less capable than men. It's logic is rather circular on that score.

Howseitgoin · 22/10/2025 20:18

TempestTost · 22/10/2025 10:53

Why not?

Because those ills as in cancel culture didn't occur in a vacuum. They are essentially a reaction to patriarchal injustices not being addressed. James Damore comes to mind. 'I'm only stating facts' might superficially seem reasonable hence all the sympathy he got but effectively it was attempting to maintain the patriarchal status quo by refuting responsibility for female advancement & making females look emotionally unreasonable.

I'm not justifying cancel culture btw as I wouldn't justify terrorism rather explaining how injustice breeds 'vigilantism'.

SionnachRuadh · 22/10/2025 15:30

UtopiaPlanitia · 22/10/2025 14:56

Yes, that sounds like where I heard it. And I agree that Drinker is much more considered on other platforms.

In the last number of years when various online critics have been discussing popular culture as it intersects with the effects of critical social justice and the politics of sex/gender in daily life, I've found (among the various channels that I watch) Drinker, Nerdrotic, Amala Ekpunobi, Misha Petrov, and Sydney Watson are pretty evenhanded in their analysis and much less likely to veer over to Disparu levels of sexism and claiming everything has been feminised so that's why society is going wrong (that man can be enjoyably sarcastic but has some strong ideas about what 'proper' masculinity entails and why women can't really enjoy scifi and action films 🤯).

I think there's also the production time lag when it comes to course correction. I can't remember who said this, but it was a good point - if there's a casting decision that looks really baffling, look at who was on the cover of Entertainment Weekly two years ago.

So with Captain Marvel, it wasn't just the flaws in the script and concept - they could have got away with that if they'd cast a beloved genre actress like Katee Sackhoff or Michelle Rodriguez instead of Brie Larson, a dour indie actress who seemed to have little interest in the project. Why was Brie Larson headlining? Because she'd been cast two years earlier when she'd just won her Oscar and was the hottest thing going.

So in the nature of things, a terrible film coming out today will probably have been greenlit four or five years ago. Bob Iger could u-turn today and we wouldn't start seeing the results until 2029.

I think what will change things is financial pressures. Even Disney is feeling the pinch. The streaming boom where they hired tons of writers, many of whom weren't very good and many of whom were more interested in being activists, that's over. A lot of the dead wood didn't come back after the writers' strike.

And I don't think pinning everything on the giant effects-laden blockbuster makes sense, because budgets are becoming so bloated it's almost impossible to make a profit. And in the streaming world the big event movie seems to be declining.

Something that puzzles me is the disappearance of unpretentious medium budget films that probably won't be mega-hits but will stand a good chance of making a tidy profit. Detective stories, military actioners, romcoms, cheap and cheerful horror, they've almost disappeared. If I were advising them I'd say, get back to basics.

UtopiaPlanitia · 22/10/2025 14:56

SionnachRuadh · 22/10/2025 14:03

I think that was a Critical Drinker thing (when he was on Triggernometry maybe?) - I find he's often very insightful when he does interviews, maybe more than on his own platform.

My go-to example of a writer who's lived the live is Paul Dehn, because in the space of three years in the 1960s he worked on the screenplays for Goldfinger, The Spy Who Came In From The Cold and The Deadly Affair. They're quite different from each other, but as spy movies go, that's a stellar output. I don't think it came out until after his death that Dehn was not only a WWII veteran but was a covert ops man who did assassinations.

I'm not saying we need trained assassins writing films, but a bit of life experience would really show through. I struggle to think of any actors or writers below retirement age (except JKR!) who've come into the entertainment business after experiencing hardship or doing working class jobs. It's mostly nepo babies these days, and it really shows.

Yes, that sounds like where I heard it. And I agree that Drinker is much more considered on other platforms.

In the last number of years when various online critics have been discussing popular culture as it intersects with the effects of critical social justice and the politics of sex/gender in daily life, I've found (among the various channels that I watch) Drinker, Nerdrotic, Amala Ekpunobi, Misha Petrov, and Sydney Watson are pretty evenhanded in their analysis and much less likely to veer over to Disparu levels of sexism and claiming everything has been feminised so that's why society is going wrong (that man can be enjoyably sarcastic but has some strong ideas about what 'proper' masculinity entails and why women can't really enjoy scifi and action films 🤯).

OP posts:
TwoLoonsAndASprout · 22/10/2025 14:25

@SionnachRuadh, re the nepo babies: I find it endlessly tiresome that “famous people” of whatever stripe think that being famous somehow qualifies them to write children’s picture books. There is so much dross now in that field it’s depressing.

SionnachRuadh · 22/10/2025 14:03

I think that was a Critical Drinker thing (when he was on Triggernometry maybe?) - I find he's often very insightful when he does interviews, maybe more than on his own platform.

My go-to example of a writer who's lived the live is Paul Dehn, because in the space of three years in the 1960s he worked on the screenplays for Goldfinger, The Spy Who Came In From The Cold and The Deadly Affair. They're quite different from each other, but as spy movies go, that's a stellar output. I don't think it came out until after his death that Dehn was not only a WWII veteran but was a covert ops man who did assassinations.

I'm not saying we need trained assassins writing films, but a bit of life experience would really show through. I struggle to think of any actors or writers below retirement age (except JKR!) who've come into the entertainment business after experiencing hardship or doing working class jobs. It's mostly nepo babies these days, and it really shows.

UtopiaPlanitia · 22/10/2025 12:58

SionnachRuadh · 22/10/2025 08:42

I think the bigger puzzle for me is how some of the basics of storytelling have been lost. I think part of that is down to political trends, like denying differences between the sexes, but there are some things that genuinely puzzle me.

I was thinking of when Marvel began to introduce young female versions of established male characters, and some worked and some didn't.

X-23 is an example of it being done well, at least in early versions before they started doing dumb things with her, because you could tell they'd thought about the character. A female version of Wolverine, with the claws and fighting ability and regeneration, has visual appeal, but Wolverine is also a very distinctive character with lots of quirks, and they put some work in making her in some ways the opposite of the original. If Logan is the man without a past who can't remember the terrible things he's done, Laura remembers too vividly and can't escape her trauma history. It's an intelligent way of doing a female version.

Of course then they ruined it by trying to make Laura the main Wolverine, which nobody was interested in.

The unsuccessful version I can think of is Araña, not because the books were horrible (I read and enjoyed them), but because the nature of Spider-Man is that Peter Parker is an everyman character, and Anya is also an everyman character, but young and female and Hispanic, and that feels more like checking boxes than having a dramatic contrast with the original that you can use to build up the new version.

I don't have a worked out thesis, but I think the loss of creativity has a few institutional and financial and demographic factors involved. More female representation might be a factor at the margins, and in some specific cases, but even then I'm cautious, because it might be (like Kathleen Kennedy) one specific woman in the wrong job, and the same problems could be caused by the wrong man in the job.

What I really don't believe is that ESG is a major factor. The guys at Kotaku In Action (the Gamergate subreddit) discovered ESG and made it their theory of everything, and it just doesn't work. It might encourage companies to do a bit of performative wokeness, but it doesn't explain why Russell T Davies went so badly off the rails, or why BBC casting directors believe that the UK population is 40% black and 25% gay.

I encountered another theory on the lack of good storytelling, for the life of me I can't remember where though, and it was that the current generation of writers and creatives are not good at telling stories because of lack of personal life experience i.e. they've live largely middle-class lives and haven't lived through the sorts of strongly formative experiences that affected previous generations, the examples given were things such as WW II, Vietnam War. The theory was that this leads recent generations towards a desire to remix previous works to better fit their current personal morality. In addition, rather than engage in creation of compelling original works and characters they are hamstrung by the restrictive, and ready to take offence, nature of their social millieu.

It's a variation on that old evergreen argument that 'people are too soft nowadays'.

OP posts:
UtopiaPlanitia · 22/10/2025 12:37

Summerhillsquare · 22/10/2025 06:21

It was trash @HeMann and OP is largely incoherent, and I am cheered by the radical feminist responses.

I wrote one short paragraph in my original post saying I was in the process of reading the article and wasn't sure what I thought of the argument being made by the author (I mentioned other potential issues that I thought were worth considering instead of her concept of 'feminisation'), and I gave a snippet from the article as an example of what I meant - how is that incoherent?

OP posts:
TempestTost · 22/10/2025 10:53

Howseitgoin · 21/10/2025 06:10

Look, sure that happens. But one could say a lot worse about how men conspire to make work conditions intolerable via competitiveness. IE It essentially becomes a competition with the winners being who will sacrifice the most effectively lowering the working conditions for all. Women & men who can't compete in terms of time commitment to families or just maintaining their sanity are the inevitable losers.

To talk about the ills of feminisation isn't meaningful without weighing it up against those of masculisation.

Edited

Why not?

SionnachRuadh · 22/10/2025 08:42

UtopiaPlanitia · 22/10/2025 00:34

That's a good point. The Marvel rebrand that was all about sex-swapping characters or creating self inserts (Ms Marvel) or turning everyone queer was too much for an awful lot of people. The comics industry has always sort of floated near a financial knife edge but I'm not surprised it's doing so poorly these days after the ridiculous changes that were made to proven, well-beloved titles and characters for no other reason than it was in support of pushing a particular type of critical social justice.

A lot of my media and reading is escapism (picked up the habit as a kid living through The Troubles and it never left me) but I also like to see allegorical stories (think either classic Trek or X-Men at its best) examining societal issues in a thoughtful/measured way. The creative industries seem to have lost these two skills or have decided that (re)educating the consumer takes precedence over enjoyment or independent thought.

What are your thoughts about ESG and companies complying with what funders like BlackRock, Vanguard, and Morgan Stanley consider to be 'moral' corporate culture? I think that's had a huge societal and civic impact that would generate the effects of the feminisation the OP article describes. And I don't see orgs like BlackRock et al as adhering to strongly 'feminine' organisational cultures 🤔

I think the bigger puzzle for me is how some of the basics of storytelling have been lost. I think part of that is down to political trends, like denying differences between the sexes, but there are some things that genuinely puzzle me.

I was thinking of when Marvel began to introduce young female versions of established male characters, and some worked and some didn't.

X-23 is an example of it being done well, at least in early versions before they started doing dumb things with her, because you could tell they'd thought about the character. A female version of Wolverine, with the claws and fighting ability and regeneration, has visual appeal, but Wolverine is also a very distinctive character with lots of quirks, and they put some work in making her in some ways the opposite of the original. If Logan is the man without a past who can't remember the terrible things he's done, Laura remembers too vividly and can't escape her trauma history. It's an intelligent way of doing a female version.

Of course then they ruined it by trying to make Laura the main Wolverine, which nobody was interested in.

The unsuccessful version I can think of is Araña, not because the books were horrible (I read and enjoyed them), but because the nature of Spider-Man is that Peter Parker is an everyman character, and Anya is also an everyman character, but young and female and Hispanic, and that feels more like checking boxes than having a dramatic contrast with the original that you can use to build up the new version.

I don't have a worked out thesis, but I think the loss of creativity has a few institutional and financial and demographic factors involved. More female representation might be a factor at the margins, and in some specific cases, but even then I'm cautious, because it might be (like Kathleen Kennedy) one specific woman in the wrong job, and the same problems could be caused by the wrong man in the job.

What I really don't believe is that ESG is a major factor. The guys at Kotaku In Action (the Gamergate subreddit) discovered ESG and made it their theory of everything, and it just doesn't work. It might encourage companies to do a bit of performative wokeness, but it doesn't explain why Russell T Davies went so badly off the rails, or why BBC casting directors believe that the UK population is 40% black and 25% gay.

Summerhillsquare · 22/10/2025 06:21

It was trash @HeMann and OP is largely incoherent, and I am cheered by the radical feminist responses.

HeMann · 22/10/2025 05:32

I thought it was an excellent article. Saddened to see that people on this board are so defensive. Some self reflection is needed after the Filia disasters. But no, that’s not gonna happen

UtopiaPlanitia · 22/10/2025 00:34

That's a good point. The Marvel rebrand that was all about sex-swapping characters or creating self inserts (Ms Marvel) or turning everyone queer was too much for an awful lot of people. The comics industry has always sort of floated near a financial knife edge but I'm not surprised it's doing so poorly these days after the ridiculous changes that were made to proven, well-beloved titles and characters for no other reason than it was in support of pushing a particular type of critical social justice.

A lot of my media and reading is escapism (picked up the habit as a kid living through The Troubles and it never left me) but I also like to see allegorical stories (think either classic Trek or X-Men at its best) examining societal issues in a thoughtful/measured way. The creative industries seem to have lost these two skills or have decided that (re)educating the consumer takes precedence over enjoyment or independent thought.

What are your thoughts about ESG and companies complying with what funders like BlackRock, Vanguard, and Morgan Stanley consider to be 'moral' corporate culture? I think that's had a huge societal and civic impact that would generate the effects of the feminisation the OP article describes. And I don't see orgs like BlackRock et al as adhering to strongly 'feminine' organisational cultures 🤔

OP posts: