Demonstration against Let Women Speak Oxford

I think the only embarrassment here is the posters turning up on a Feminism and Women's Rights thread to tell us that their lovely male friends (one's a DOCTOR you know and one works for the UNIVERSITY) are lovely and it's the mean women saying Naughty Words who should be scolded. Not My Nigel meets Hyacinth Bouquet.

My views of KJK are derived from statements she has made herself and from the content of her own twitter feed.

So I’m not worried in the slightest about accusations of untruth or libel.

That kind of lie cost John Pesutto a lot of money and required a humiliating public apology. Any Neo Nazis that turned up at her event were there to protest against her with the full approval of the police. In fact, one of the NNs was son of a police officer.

John Pesutto’s statement.

I have never believed or intended to assert that Kellie-Jay Keen and Angela Jones are Neo-Nazis. It is also now clear from public statements made by Ms Keen and Ms Jones that they share my belief that Nazism is odious and contemptible.
People engaged in robust public debate do not always have the ability to express themselves perfectly. This is one reason that we should give those we may disagree with some benefit of the doubt.
I recognise that there have been times when my comments could have more clearly differentiated between the organisers of the 18 March 2023 Let Women Speak Rally and the Neo-Nazis who attended the steps of Parliament House on that day.
It has never been my intention to convey that I believed Ms Keen and Ms Jones to be Neo-Nazis, or that they were members of Neo-Nazi groups. As far as my comments may have been misunderstood as conveying that I believed this to be the case, I apologise for any hurt, distress or harm that has occurred.

A man, Muslim or not, turning up to protest an event to join other men in drowning out ordinary women trying to speak deserves to be called an asshole.

It’s quite ridiculous that you would suggest otherwise.

Feminism isn’t a monolith, correct. I agree with you. It categorically doesn’t centre men which is that you seem to think.

Well, that was a waste of a perfectly good scold. 😂

Who assumed that he was anti-woman because he was holding a copy of the Koran, and because he was part of the counter-protest group (ie didn't agree with HER).

She understandably assumed he was against women as he was part of a group protesting her event and stopping women from speaking.

Nothing I see about KJK makes me think she's genuinely interested in listening or debate. She's a provocateur.

Why should she listen to men protesting her event? Why should she listen to women like you who have invested quite a lot of time lying and attempting to smear her and arguing against her events to Let Women Speak.

You are free to hold your opinions but you are not relevant. You are working against women’s rights and the interests of the very women KJK is trying to help. Your luxury beliefs translate into real life harm for vulnerable women. One day maybe you will understand.

Hello!

Perhaps you didn't see my questions to you about the organisers of the counter-protest. Perhaps you need time to think about whether they are good representatives of your cause.

This statement makes me embarrassed for you.

Tell me you don't have any Muslim friends or colleagues without telling me you don't have any Muslim friends or colleagues.

You do know for instance that if your DC happens to apply to Oxford Uni, they are likely to encounter at least some of the very normal Muslim people involved in uni admissions across all the colleges.

Really, there is no place for anti-Muslim prejudice in modern Britain.

because you exclude trans women from the category of women, right?

In the same way that sticklebacks are excluded from the category of fungi.

Not at all but calling people anti-trans etc is insulting and juvenile. I, and many other Mumsnetters have no problem with transgender people following their beliefs about their gender providing that they obey the law that now says clearly that women have rights to separate spaces and don't expect me to believe it too..

We are not objects to be used to validate someone's gender identity, whatever that may or may not be. We have opinions and beliefs and rights. I was going to finish 'sorry if that upsets you' but that would be lying.

I think that the PP missed my point entirely.

It seems pretty low hanging fruit for 100 people to shout and scream drowning out a single woman's voice.

LWS could 'fight back' by trundling around a tower of speakers to drown out the protestors at their events but what's the point? Every body just ends up shouting and nobody listens to anything.

The one who shouts the loudest wins, is not what free speech is about.

The optics of a bunch of blokes (yes, and some women) yelling childish slogans across a road at a single woman who might have finally summoned the courage to express a childhood trauma, is not great.

I'm sure all the protestors went home congratulating themselves on a job well done, being on the right side of history and how well they had shown the bigots who's boss. High-fives all round

Well I don't need to do anything re Dr Ramzy, because he's not a fundamentalist, full stop.

Great, 1 down 1 billion to go. 👍

@cowleycyclist
What spannasaurus said

Well I don't need to do anything re Dr Ramzy, because he's not a fundamentalist, full stop.

If he is not a fundamentalist then I hope he feels a responsibility to ensure that the fundamentalists do not come to dominate. I'm sure he would appreciate your clear encouragement and support in that endeavour.

Transwomen are men so of course they're excluded from the category of women.

Transmen are women so included in the women's category

Not trans exclusionary but men exclusionary

And I asked, without any kind of patronising tone. Some of us manage it.

Well I don't need to do anything re Dr Ramzy, because he's not a fundamentalist, full stop.

Trans-exclusionary seems fair enough to me... because you exclude trans women from the category of women, right? The term gender critical strikes me as a misnomer, because feminists have been critical of the notion of gender for many decades. I'm personally extremely critical of the notion of gender. But being critical of the notion of gender doesn't mean dismissing it, nor does it mean insisting on a binary opposition between gender and sex.

This took place very near my work so I listened carefully to see what my colleagues were making of it.

1.It was described as an "anti-trans/far-right" rally by a good few people. Whether we think that's fair or not the association is there.

2.One colleague said "it was really funny, all the ones who were on the trans side came over as really masculine and the other side seemed quite polite" She'd been over to chat to both sides apparently.

She didn't say this with any expectation that anyone would take offence and would probably be surprised to learn that this was controversial or that she was GC or transphobic. A useful reminder that many people have no idea there are things they "shouldn't" say.

3.One customer while asking about work happened to mention the rally and said excitedly. "It's antifa so they'll have this off me" - pointing to a hat he was wearing with a Union Jack on it. He was Black yet feared being attacked by the side associated with the Left.

All in all, quite a reminder of how people's views are shaped so much by various confused messages they're receiving from the media.

How we actually have sensible political debate in this environment I do not know.

Weird. The poster you're quoting didn't mention discrimination! 🤷‍♀️

Well indeed. And so what?
There were numerous shout outs to KJK at the battle of ideas, every time to massive applause. She speaks to and for a lot of women.

No, it isn't "discrimination" just because a counter-protest has a larger turnout.

I thought posters on here would have a good grasp on what discrimination means legally given every other thread mentions it.

I did say that in the post you didn't understand. 🤷‍♀️

Well @cowleycyclist I'm sure we are all hoping that your moderate face of Islam wins out over the fundamentalist face. Anything that you can do to encourage that with your chats outside Tesco would be welcome.

Try to respect us enough to not call us 'trans-exclusive' though. That is a poor description of where we are and suggests demonisation rather than dialogue.

Look, I agree with you, nothing makes me livid like anti-blasphemy laws.

I just think it's important to recognise that those laws are imposed by totalitarian governments, not by individuals.

I'm 100% sure that Dr Ramzy isn't bothered by the fact that we've shelved his copy of the Qu'ran in our house instead of venerating it. When we chat outside the Cowley Road Tesco, he seems pretty chilled.

To me the important thing is not to attribute one face to Islam (any more than we would attribute one face to Christianity or to Judaism).

And when it comes to gender, yes, I'm a trans-inclusive feminist, but you're welcome to disagree with me if you want to.

Well maybe next time, instead of trying to belittle and have an argument, you could have said that was the case. But hey why be nice to someone.