High Court rules that a trans man......

Yes. This is the most objective way I could think of to describe the discussion that took place at what turned out to be my final attendance with this (online, via my work) group. I sloped off without saying anything after that meeting because it became too much and I found it too upsetting.

I had joined fully open-mindedly and was really glad I stuck with it as it felt important to view everything from all angles so that I could be the best support for my daughter. However, once I realised I didn't believe in the idea that we all had a gender identity any more I found it heartbreaking having what was effectively a front row seat as everyone's (teenage and young adult) children's journeys into medical transition progressed.

To the contrary, your comment prompted mine about how the gendered association of colours has changed over time. A reminder that what we call "feminine" and "masculine" are social constructs that change over time and vary by culture is never out of place in a thread where we discuss a law that literally talks about "living in the acquired gender".

I'm sorry to have derailed an otherwise sensible thread. My relationship with the colour pink is completely irrelevant and is something that I will deal with in another place.

Its reading comments such as both had the same private surgeon do their penis removals and neovagina construction that make me desperate for this tragedy for young people to reach its conclusion.

I wonder if I would have still chosen to do a physics degree had I been born in that era🤔

Pink used to be the boys' colour and pale blue the girls'.

😁A few freckles, but I think it's mainly a warm skin-tone issue. I have always hated pink and assumed it meant I wasn't a girly girl, but when I discovered it might be because pink doesn't suit me I had a bit of a feminist crisis😳

Great, isn't it? Catchy for those who like rap music (I do) and also very informative.

Yes, big bucks in the US but there's definitely money to be made here too. When I was in the transparents' group, there was a general consensus that there was no point in waiting for the NHS to get treatment. The transwoman in the group and the 18 year old of one of the parents both had the same private surgeon do their penis removals and neovagina construction. Another parent was looking at cross-sex hormones as a gift. Listening to the parents, it was clear how much they loved their children and that they believed they were doing the right thing.

TBF they did listen to my concerns about autism conflation - one dad even asked me for a separate conversation about it. He thought it was interesting but didn't want to know about detransitioners when I brought that up. He said something like "that's not the kind of thing I want to think about. I just want to be supportive". I struggled to understand that, because I'd want to explore every angle. But equally, he was divorced and it was very clear that he worried about losing the relationship with his child if he didn't embrace it all enthusiastically.

Ha! Very true.

This whole part of the thread does risk looking like a TRA's dream, with all the talk of how cmplicated biological sex is. It reminds me of the time that Kew Gardens "queered" everything:

https://www.kew.org/read-and-watch/queer-nature

It starts with plants and fungi and then ends up bringing "LGBT+" in to round it all off, implying that it's all linked in a mysterious way that really makes sense if you embrace it.

In some ways, it's hilarious that they would try and retro-fit gender identity belief to non-human species... but it stops being funny when you think about a 21 year old female growing up with all of this kind of messaging being the norm. If that's an example your point of reference from childhood and through adolescence, it's easy to see why you might no longer have an understanding of the reality of biological sex.

IIRC Kew had lots of schools visit during the time that this exhibition was on.

Freckles? Pink makes my face look like a pizza. 😓

I hadn't seen that video before! Thanks @BonfireLady
It also reminded me of an aspect that I think is sometimes less obvious to us in the UK, because of the NHS - namely the big $$$ incentive to push lifelong medications and complicated surgeries.

I think it is to do with complexion, not hair colour. I have a red-headed friend who looks great in certain shades of pink but, even with her help, I have been unable to find a shade of pink that works for my complexion.

If we reproduced exclusively asexually there would be no sexes and we would all be clones. Do you mean if we were hermaphrodites?

Oh why did you have to say that? Now I'll have to be honest and admit that I just don't like pink.

Oh god. Don't tell the TRAs that. We'll be inundated with "sharks are non-binary and so some humans can be too" and other assorted bollocks.

Please list the animals that routinely do not use sexual reproduction
and the plants
(its a short list)

Would we? Or would we just say that some people are more aggressive and violent than others. There wouldn't be sexual assaults because there wouldn't be any sexual differences, just bigger and smaller people.

We wouldn't recognise sex in sharks if there were no male or female sharks.

Not so. Every shade of pink has a shade of orange that works with it.

Possibly so.

At this juncture though, I reckon it's time to either:

a) fully embrace the idea that we all have a gendered soul that is separate from our body, bask in the freedom and wonders of queer theory and agree just how nebulous the concept of biological sex really is

or b) remember that human beings aren't sharks (or clownfish, who actually can change their sex) and that human medical experimentation which leans on the science of other species to justify itself is dangerous.

For those who prefer option b, this is a great way to summarise the harmful impact of it all ⬇️

But isn't that because sharks can also reproduce in the m+f way? I.e.the two sexes are actual reproductive sexes, not just dimorphism for some other reason.

Yes we would.

Otherwise we'd be scratching our heads about why there were two clear bell curves of human when it came to sports results, violent crime, sexual assaults and more. The usefulness of having clearly understood categories of male and female goes beyond reproduction.

Even sharks, which can reproduce asexually through parthenogenesis, have classifications of male and female.

There are other differences between men and women and other consequences to being male or female, but if we reproduced asexually I don't think we would group people into 2 kinds of human.

*part of the latter.

(Too late for the edit button)

I disagree. It's one reason why we bother to categise this. There are plenty and not all are related to healthcare.

Of those that are, gynaecology and obstetrics are branches of medicine that a male will never need. Knowledge about pregnancy is obviously part of it the latter.

It's the reason why we bother to categorise 'male' and 'female'.