Page 2 | So how are things going in Germany?

Toutafait · 2025-10-12T21:38:01+00:00

So Germany brought in self-ID almost a year ago, together with a hefty fine for deadnaming. I have a German friend, and he tells me that trans rights are now a non-issue in Germany. Nobody ever talks about them, apparently. So I'm wondering whether everything's going well ("transwomen" behaving like women, no children being inappropriately transitioned and operated on, nothing else bad happening), or whether bad things are happening and it's being swept under the carpet. I've asked ChatGPT whether there are any problems, and I'll give you its response. It has mentioned the case of the Nazi criminal self-IDing to get access to a women's prison, but no other specific incidents. Does anyone have any more information? "Where problems and discussions continue Social acceptance & discrimination Even though many things are now easier legally, trans and non-binary people continue to report everyday discrimination, prejudice and hate crimes. Deutsche Welle +1 Many such incidents continue to go unreported for fear of reprisals or because those affected do not believe that taking action will make any difference. Deutsche Welle Political and public controversies There is criticism from conservative or right-wing circles, particularly with regard to minors, possible ‘risks of abuse’ in self-determination, or fears that the rights of women or other groups could be affected. Although many of these allegations are controversial, they accompany the debate. Deutsche Welle +1 The issue of minors remains difficult Although changes are possible for young people aged 14 and over under certain conditions (parental consent, etc.), the treatment of younger children in particular remains controversial. Opinions differ on how extensive and early medical/specialised support should be (e.g. puberty blockers, hormone treatments), and there are practical hurdles such as access, costs, specialists, etc. bild.de +1 Enforcement and application in practice Laws are one thing — how they are actually implemented is often another. For example, there are regional differences in Germany, delays at government offices, ambiguities among government employees, or problems with international documents, passports, etc. Deutsche Welle +1 Rights vs. public safety & institutions A current dispute: a convicted neo-Nazi who has legally changed his gender is to serve his prison sentence in a women's prison. This has sparked a debate about whether and how the new law can be abused there and which institutions need to prepare for such cases and how. The Washington Post"

Delphin · 06/11/2025 07:13

The Asterisk is spoken as a glottal stop in the middle of a word:
Studentinnen und Studenten --> Student'innen
Spoken examples (timestamp):

You can hear it live sometimes when listening to radio and TV presenters (mostly in "progressive" youth magazines of the public stations/öffentlich-rechtliche Sender). I've never heard it in "freier Wildbahn"/in the wild, only in interviews on TV/radio, where people are conscious of some hundred thousand or million people watching them...

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/rqtj0-2ye_4?si=WKGoqN8j-uo6L530

moto748e · 05/11/2025 23:41

As the Sun used to say, you couldn't make it up! 😀

Original poster

Toutafait · 05/11/2025 23:14

Toutafait · 05/11/2025 18:19

@ForestAtTheSea I'm not a fan of the "Studenten und Studentinnen" way of talking. It's very clumsy. That's presumably what's led to people using terms like "Studierende" - "people who study". I understand the argument of course. But how do you feel about the change in the language to include "non-binary people"? So "Politiker und Politikerinnen" becomes "Politikerinnen", with the denoting non-binary people. In spoken speech, you're supposed to leave a (presumably respectful) pause between the male and female form of the word, to denote non-binary people. As if the expectation to use different pronouns isn't difficult and clumsy enough! I'm not surprised that some Germans have been rebelling against being put under (the usual) pressure to write and speak like this. This is discussed in this article: Why has non-binary language become a national debate in Germany? | Context by TRF

Sorry, I haven't been able to amend this post. Apparently asterisks don't work on Mumsnet! So in German, in these trans-dominated times, you're supposed to insert an asterisk (or some people use a hyphen or colon) in between the male and female forms of a noun describing a person. So where in English you say "Students..." in Germany they basically say "Male students asterisk female students..." The asterisk denotes non binary people. But what do you do when you're speaking, and can't add an asterisk? Instead of the asterisk, you're supposed to pause. The pause in your speech denotes non-binary people: "We need to be inclusive of all our male students [meaningful pause to denote non binary] female students."
This one thing on its own has destroyed all my illusions of the Germans being a sensible people. At least there has been a fight back.

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moto748e · 05/11/2025 21:55

Fascinating stuff about the German language. Every day's a school day on MN.

HildegardP · 05/11/2025 18:50

HildegardP · 05/11/2025 17:40

I know diminutives are neutral & that people who speak german don't really think that "der Tische" is male or that houses are non-binary but it's worth a moment's consideration that "girl" is a dimuntive whilst "der Jungen" isn't. Nicknames are as you say made, & the ones you cite are familial terms of endearment like adding a diminutive suffix to an English name, which isn't the same as a girl being designated bth neuter & a diminutive.

I'm not solidly on board with the Linguistic Turn & I don't care if people say "manpower" or "manhole cover", etc, but if you speak more than one language you do get a sense of how you each one shapes your expression, & to some extent your thought.

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Brain fart re "girl"! Sorry, meant to say "neuter".

Original poster

Toutafait · 05/11/2025 18:19

@ForestAtTheSea I'm not a fan of the "Studenten und Studentinnen" way of talking. It's very clumsy. That's presumably what's led to people using terms like "Studierende" - "people who study". I understand the argument of course. But how do you feel about the change in the language to include "non-binary people"? So "Politiker und Politikerinnen" becomes "Politikerinnen", with the denoting non-binary people. In spoken speech, you're supposed to leave a (presumably respectful) pause between the male and female form of the word, to denote non-binary people. As if the expectation to use different pronouns isn't difficult and clumsy enough! I'm not surprised that some Germans have been rebelling against being put under (the usual) pressure to write and speak like this. This is discussed in this article: Why has non-binary language become a national debate in Germany? | Context by TRF

Why has non-binary language become a national debate in Germany? | Context by TRF

A German ban on the official use of inclusive language comes amid a global rollback of LGBTQ+ rights

https://www.context.news/socioeconomic-inclusion/why-has-non-binary-language-become-a-national-debate-in-germany

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HildegardP · 05/11/2025 17:40

Igneococcus · 05/11/2025 06:22

All diminutives are neutral in German, it doesn't only apply to girls, you can make diminutives of men/boys as well and they are also neutral. In my mother's dialect (Untermain, at the border between Bavaria and Hessen) every person (that is personally known to you and is a friend or family member) is referred to by a diminutive of their name even when fully grown adults, like my Onkel Hermann was "das Herrmännle" or my Tante Klara was always called "das Klarale" (impossible to say for people who also struggle with pronouncing "R"). If you speak German as your native language this is just a quirk of your language it doesn't impart meaning

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I know diminutives are neutral & that people who speak german don't really think that "der Tische" is male or that houses are non-binary but it's worth a moment's consideration that "girl" is a dimuntive whilst "der Jungen" isn't. Nicknames are as you say made, & the ones you cite are familial terms of endearment like adding a diminutive suffix to an English name, which isn't the same as a girl being designated bth neuter & a diminutive.

I'm not solidly on board with the Linguistic Turn & I don't care if people say "manpower" or "manhole cover", etc, but if you speak more than one language you do get a sense of how you each one shapes your expression, & to some extent your thought.

Igneococcus · 05/11/2025 06:22

HildegardP · 05/11/2025 00:37

Such larks! And in a language in which, just as one example, "girl" was already neuter 3rd gender "das Mädchen". Schiller was right, "Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens" !

Show quote history

All diminutives are neutral in German, it doesn't only apply to girls, you can make diminutives of men/boys as well and they are also neutral. In my mother's dialect (Untermain, at the border between Bavaria and Hessen) every person (that is personally known to you and is a friend or family member) is referred to by a diminutive of their name even when fully grown adults, like my Onkel Hermann was "das Herrmännle" or my Tante Klara was always called "das Klarale" (impossible to say for people who also struggle with pronouncing "R"). If you speak German as your native language this is just a quirk of your language it doesn't impart meaning

ForestAtTheSea · 05/11/2025 03:15

Toutafait · 05/11/2025 00:13

I'm not sure about the language. After all, they were already bending over backwards to make everything male and female (eg Politiker, Politikerin). They're now tying themselves completely in knots by introducing a 3rd gender, making the language even more ridiculous.

That's not correct. German language isn't "bending over backwards" to have a male and female version of a word. That's standard issue. Many words have a male and female version.

Within the second wave feminists, the linguistic researchers pointed out that many people only used the male version to include both men and women.

Luise F. Pusch is one of those linguists, if anyone wants to look it up. Efforts were made to mention both female and male versions in every day speech. It wasn't bending over backwards, just being more aware of available words and making women visible in language.

The researchers found that when you always only use the male version only, girls and women didn't feel mentioned, and it hindered their job prospects, for example. If politicians, doctors and CEOs are always men (in language), it makes those which are female invisible and girls wouldn't think they could be that. Some studies showed that the male plural was more often used for the "prestigious jobs" and female plural for the jobs which had less social status (not value!).

This is not the same as the next steps in the development, which is maybe what you refer to.

Then came the inclusive speech, for example with a capital "I in words, such as "PolitikerInnen", to demonstrate the male and female plural in one word. That was a bit clumsy but it was with good intentions and to avoid overly long sentences.

Currently it's "Politiker:innen" (similarly, meant to represent male and female plural), grammatically incorrect and for some terms, they use for example "Lehrende" (teachers, in this case it's a participle tense and sounds pretty weird in German, in my view), instead of "Lehrer" and "Lehrerin".

I think the newer forms are regressive as they again obscure male and female terms and make women invisible. Especially forms like "Lehrende" are in effect the same as "Lehrer" (male plural in my example case) and again I'm asking where the women are in this language.

The examples I presented are also meant to include everyone who is neither male or female; "non-binary", diverse and so on. For the sake of an illogical theory, millions of women are again vanishing from the language and we're back to the 1980s and before.

HildegardP · 05/11/2025 00:37

Toutafait · 05/11/2025 00:13

I'm not sure about the language. After all, they were already bending over backwards to make everything male and female (eg Politiker, Politikerin). They're now tying themselves completely in knots by introducing a 3rd gender, making the language even more ridiculous.

Such larks! And in a language in which, just as one example, "girl" was already neuter 3rd gender "das Mädchen". Schiller was right, "Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens" !

Original poster

Toutafait · 05/11/2025 00:13

I'm not sure about the language. After all, they were already bending over backwards to make everything male and female (eg Politiker, Politikerin). They're now tying themselves completely in knots by introducing a 3rd gender, making the language even more ridiculous.

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HildegardP · 04/11/2025 23:58

Toutafait · 04/11/2025 23:45

@ForestAtTheSea I'm very disappointed in the Germans. They've been both very stupid and very naive. They will inevitably suffer the consequences.

A great deal of the pressure comes from the EU Commission & the Council of Europe. Both are, er, blessed with some of the worst of the well-credentialled misogynistic wingnuts of a Gender Identitarian persuasion.
Being scrupulously fair, the German language doesn't make it easy to discuss the issue with clarity & that's even if you keep it abstract to try to avoid the idiotic elements of German criminal law.
One glimmer of hope is the recent establishment of the Athena Forum spearheaded by the Austrian former Green MP, Faika El-Nagashi. Mr Menno has a very informative interview with her on Youtube.

Original poster

Toutafait · 04/11/2025 23:45

@ForestAtTheSea I'm very disappointed in the Germans. They've been both very stupid and very naive. They will inevitably suffer the consequences.

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ForestAtTheSea · 04/11/2025 18:55

@Toutafait

In my impression that's not what drives this.

I don't know how many Germans regularly read English-language media; I don't mean Insta & TikTok and watching Netflix, but looking at international newspapers / media. Probably rather those who are interested in economic topics or politics, which doesn't necessarily include women's rights.

Reading what is happening in the US might rather fuel a sense of resistance, such as "trans rights are not going to be restricted in Germany, because we are not like the Republicans in the USA". Not because of any superior feeling, but because Germany tends to have an acknowledgement that despite different political opinions, in the main people are decent and not heartless.

(Edit: I mean the "decent people" reference in the way that most people probably do not want a general situation like in the US because German capitalism is buffered by social measures, and most people don't appreciate the concentration of power in a few people).

Then there's an international crowd which probably checks up on events in their homecountries but these could be any: for example Spain, which has the same problems as Germany, or Turkey, which has very conservative politics, and hundreds of other countries. Thus the media they consume varies wildly, too and has many influences.

Maybe someone else knows more about that.

But if you'd only check up news in German, and aren't specifically looking for feminist topics, or feminist topics without the TQ, you might never come across it. It's a media problem and framing problem, too.
Most articles on the one-year-anniversary of the law were rather positive and never get to the bottom of the problems, only some surface niggles, like this one in the main news. It brought up a legal point of incongruency of looks and legal gender, but that is not the main point at all, it's not about "appearance".
The article gently touches on "genuine intention" when changing legal gender, but not nearly enough.
https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/innenpolitik/selbstbestimmungsgesetz-bilanz-100.html

Not many still dare question the main premise of becoming a different sex. As long as you don't go near that question, there cannot be a solution. I only see some brave women's rights campaigners do that, but no-one else in the mainstream media.

Original poster

Toutafait · 03/11/2025 23:40

@ForestAtTheSea It seems to me that Germany came to this late. They could and should have learned from what was happening in English-speaking countries. Was it a sense of superiority - we're modern Europeans and the bad stuff that's happening in the US etc won't happen in Germany?

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ForestAtTheSea · 03/11/2025 22:05

Apart from the hefty fines, one of the main reasons why few people seem to talk about it, seems to be that only few persons understand how thoroughly devastating the new laws are for women.

It seems that many who oppose "genderspeak" as they call it, see it mainly as a fashion and a woke-lefty-green topic that they don't agree with. But many who are talking down on it do not see the full complexity as the women on this board have discussed.

In reverse, if someone agrees with green politics, then they must include this topic, too. If you are, for example, pro veganism, anti-racism and renewable energy, then you "cannot" be against TRAs. Similarly, for the social democrats and a subgroup of conservatives and liberals, being pro Self-ID, means that they show their "good person" credentials.

Outside of the Emma-magazine crowd and some switched on people like Rona Duwe, Let Women Speak groups / activists in some cities and people like Faika El-Nagashi (who is Austrian), there aren't that many who speak out publicly. And Alice Schwarzer of Emma is a controversial person in her own right, also has some tax-"avoidance" schemes to her name and is against further war with Russia, which is another controversial topic in Germany, due to its location.

The other group of people who speaks loudly against Self-ID is on the very conservative and also far-right.

I remember there were discussions here that of course being against TRAs does not mean anyone is far-right; they just latched onto the topic, too. But in the public discussion, these topics still get quickly thrown together, as the far-right seized the topic as it helps with their "anti-woke" position.

Thus except for the women's rights campaigners who managed to keep the topic "pure" and unbiased, the other groups who are against it are either seen as "lefty Russia-supporters", "second-wave feminists who are too traditional and haven't got the memo", or far right.

That means it's not easy to discuss this on its own merits in the media and the public, not that many even tried. But I see the main problem in that many people still haven't realized what could go wrong here with regard to women's rights, and the medical problems which will accumulate with medication and surgery. #

Another factor is that many people are positive about gay and lesbian rights, which is of course good, and think if they oppose TRAs, they'll damage other rights, too. Here we need some conscious uncoupling, too.

HildegardP · 01/11/2025 18:57

Nothing to add to the substance of the discussion except a long sigh at the enduring misogyny of Gemany, but a quick tip for anyone looking for more readable translations from German than Google provides - try Deepl, it's a bit more accurate overall & slightly less clunky in output.

DuesToTheDirt · 01/11/2025 18:40

Toutafait · 18/10/2025 13:46

FROM AUSTRIA:
This is from an article about the Austrian man who fancied serving his sentence for fraud in a women's prison. It's all going swimmingly for him. When he gets out of prison he'll be able to retire years early. Who'd have thought that someone would take advantage like this? Inconceivable! The far right populist (as described by the BBC) Freedom Party is speaking out about it. The article in German is posted below.

"Viennese man wants to go to women's prison
‘I'm especially looking forward to showering with the ladies.’
Walter became Waltraud – with ID, expert opinion and the desire to serve time in a women's prison. As an added bonus, he can also retire earlier.

This case defies many notions of gender, law and the system: a 60-year-old Viennese man, once the operator of an hourly hotel, changed his gender without further ado – and is now making headlines as ‘Waltraud’. The reason for the sudden change of heart? An impending prison sentence.

‘I thought to myself: Then I'll just go to a women's prison,’ says Waltraud with a grin. He wanted to serve his three-month sentence for fraud – he sold counterfeit silver coins – as a woman. Preferably in a shared cell with other women.

‘I'm especially looking forward to showering and going for walks with the women. I'll have a good time there with the ladies,’ smiles the Viennese man. At first, Waltraud was met with scepticism at the magistrate's office – not ‘feminine’ enough in appearance.

But with a psychiatric report, everything suddenly happened very quickly: within a week, the change was entered in the Central Register of Civil Status.

What began as a prank against the system not only attracted media attention but also resulted in a letter from the Pension Insurance Institution (PVA) – Waltraud is now allowed to retire as a woman at 61 instead of 65. ‘A nice side effect,’ as she says. ‘But not my goal.’

While the Ministry of Justice emphasises to the ‘Krone’ that transgender people must not be discriminated against and that prison places are decided on a case-by-case basis, the PVA wants to review the case. This is because whether someone ‘looks like a woman’ is not clearly defined in law – and is also currently the subject of discussion in court in a similar case.

Conscription could also be circumvented by loopholes in gender law – lawyers are calling for clear legal rules. Waltraud takes it with humour: ‘I'm just a lesbian transsexual.’ And what does her wife say? She's used to a lot from her – and remains by her side.

‘Absurdity of left-wing woke gender ideology’
The case of Walter or Waltraud is currently causing heated debate in Austria – and making headlines. Reactions from politicians were not long in coming. FPÖ federal party spokeswoman Lisa Schuch-Gubik described the report about the former red-light boss, who, after changing his gender, will now serve his prison sentence in a women's prison and could even retire earlier as a woman, as a ‘particularly absurd outgrowth of the left-wing woke gender and rainbow ideology of the establishment parties’.

‘This is exactly the madness that we Freedom Party members have always warned about, and which also opens the door to abuse. Gender is not something that can be chosen at will or ideologically attributed by anyone, but a biological fact with only two options: either male or female!’

This scandalous case therefore demonstrates once again the need for a ‘return to normality’, as expected by the population outside the ‘shrill woke and rainbow minority’: "Men have no place in women's prisons, just as drag queens have no place in schools and nurseries, or six genders to choose from on the registration form. Even if the left-wing woke bubble is foaming at the mouth about it: there are only two biological sexes, between which one cannot simply switch back and forth as one pleases or as it suits one's interests!" claims the FPÖ.

Wiener will in Frauengefängnis – "Ich freue mich besonders aufs Duschen mit den Damen" | Heute.at

Ah, no one could have predicted such a thing!

Maerchentante · 01/11/2025 18:26

A year ago the SBG came into effect. They just had a short report on the ZDF "Heute" news.
They spoke to two people "affected" by the law. One, clearly female, changed her first name to Anthony and her sex-marker to "divers". The other was a TiM going by the name of Rebekka saying how much easier the new process was and how intrusive and hard the old process was. Gave me a strong whiff of Malaga Airport and clearly looked and sounded male. Long hair does not make a woman.
In a half sentence they mentioned that there were also critics of the law.

Balanced reporting looks different.