Thinking about the troll threads

I find the spammer threads can be quite useful, up to a point, they can reveal a lot about the spammer, much more than they realise I think, and they provide an insight into the mind set of the Pretendatarians.

I'm now convinced it's pointless talking to them because they not interested in listening, I don't concern myself with finding a way to fix things because some people are so broke they can't be fixed.
I'm only interested in regaining all that's been taken from us, no matter what it takes, their problems are their own, and they're on the own when it comes to finding a solution to them or not, don't care.

Yes, of course! 🤦🏽‍♀️

4th space please.

3rd space is for disabled people.

The concerned women who consider themselves to be allies and defenders of trans rights - kind who are speaking purely out of a desire to be kind, protect the vulnerable and be on the right side of history - may well have second thoughts in time. They're not likely to announce this on a thread even if it does come as an instant lightbulb moment, which it probably won't. That would be embarrassing. But the comments can niggle at them over time and once you start to see the misogyny you can't unsee it.

You can spot the male trolls who are steeped in misogyny a mile off, though. They will never care about women other than as resource providers for their own desires.

I’ve been on MN for about 18-21m and watched the threads, engaged in good faith (still oblivious to which are clearly the TRA/Trolls in some cases).

However, I think a comment someone made on a now deleted thread sums it up - these people have not reasoned themselves into their positions, so you cannot reason their way out of it. I used to hope that a discussion would lead to just one OP having a lightbulb moment where they finally take on board the impact of TWs in women’s spaces - that it dawns on them that they are compounding pre-existing trauma in vulnerable women, or causing significant initial trauma in women of certain faiths/ethnicities when they discover their space/privacy/dignity has been encroached upon by male presence.

But not one single bloody time on MN, X, or elsewhere, do I ever see them acknowledge the impact on women and girls or, consequently, open themselves up to considering that a compromise (3rd spaces) may be needed.

I engage because I would genuinely like to discuss squaring the circle of competing rights and what that might look like. But no one ever wants to do that.

And I’ve honestly had some hideous things said to me when I detail why I feel single sex spaces are so important to me.

Yes, this is a common tactic.

I think it is often “non binary” people complaining that forces this type of awful language.

I hate to be negative but discussion and progress would require two sides able to give ground.

On one side - well, how much dignity, privacy, equality, access and safety should women sacrifice compassionately so that men can express their inner selves in the way they would like? It would involve actual removal of women's legal rights now to give them less so that men can have more. And what might that act as a precedent for?

On the other - you're interacting with someone who by definition has chosen to believe in an alternative reality. Sincerely, yes, but the belief is that anything except unqualified enabling is 'hate', and that there can be no mutual respect or tolerance. It's a position that gives no tolerance or acceptance for women's diversity, cultures, needs, traumas or any of the other words beloved to the ideology but only ever applied to the one who wants to be served by others; it's not extended to the servant class.

This is largely about the difficulties of when you have allowed people to define their own reality through feelings and wishes and hopes and dreams and self expression and caring about their inner self and self perception - you do eventually have to present a boundary, and it will then be seen as cruel and unreasonable. When you provide someone with a right to call themselves a lesbian if that expresses their inner truth regardless of actual facts because you wish to be kind and supportive, someone else acquires a responsibility. In this case, homosexual people to shut up, go underground, and deal with men who feel aggressively entitled to sex from them and have no interest whatsoever in 'kindness' or 'supportiveness' or 'inner truth' or anything beyond 'gimme access to your body, you got no right gatekeeping it from me'.

And, as has happened, to have homosexuality re defined as 'anything anyone wants so long as its not actual homosexuality because that's evil and they should be excluded and hurt if they won't stop'. Which is yes, a different reason than was given forty years ago for excluding and hurting, but the experience, prejudice and intolerance is the same for homosexual people. It happened through kindness and well intentioned relaxing of boundaries. That was not reciprocated, but seen as a licence to use.

There are also the threads that are carefully engineered to sound innocent and wanting to engage, and it becomes very quickly evident your bingo card will fill and then the well known posters begin the groundhog game for kicks.

Using women. For validation, entertainment, a prop, attention, it's always for these men all about using women.

I think one of the problems that makes the case for more debate, is that it is extremely difficult for some to realize that you have to have exclusionary language if you are to have any meaning whatsoever.

So, for example, there was a post recently on a lesbian forum that noted the new definition for 'lesbian' is: 'non-men who love non-men'. There was a loud outcry of agreement about how deranged that was - how that erased women, redefined lesbianism, and centered men. This is a central theme of the forum so the outcry was to be expected. But somewhere along the way in the discussion, there was a post by a non-binary female who said that she strongly agreed, but personally thought the definition: woman-oriented people loving women oriented people was closer to her truth. Once again there was a large outpouring of support about how valid the poster was and how the poster's concerns should be taken into consideration.

But that brings the situation back exactly to what the problem originally was: anyone is free to identify into 'woman-oriented', included non-women, e.g. non-binaries of both sexes - 'women' has been robbed of any meaning as has 'lesbian'. And all this to make some people feel valid and included. So basically the entire thread nullified itself. The only way that those contradictions can be worked out is repeated discussions, hopefully with the GC side being compassionate, persistent, but firm and unbending about definitions.

That's a good point about their impotence at about not being able to physically intimidate the women on here. You feel they just want to shriek 'why won't you just shut up, bitch!!!' and watch women cowering away.

And despite the attempts at doxxing, the activist interns, the targeting of advertisers, the DDOS attacks and yes, the tedious reddit sorties, we're still here.

They're seething that we can't be made to shut up. That their male voices aren't the only ones being heard.

Agree, best ignored.

Useful idiot style, they sometimes show us how the TRA movement attempts to change the language around transactivism.
Very helpful for the lurkers, I reckon [waves to the lurkers, I was once like you, all Be Kind and wtf-ing at the cruel women rejecting the lovely lantern-jawed hulk who only wanted to pee]

The recent crop is all about the 'trans person' or 'trans people' - trying to obscure the sex of the person or people they are talking about (hint: always the be-penised kind) and 'those who rape us' - trying to force-team males who say they are women with actual original cunty women. I was told I was talking drivel for pointing this out .

I think there's a fairly evident difference between someone genuinely wishing to engage and a familiar and well known poster groundhogging the exact same thread over again. Where the chosen lines are designed merely to provoke and to watch women run around again.

Those threads really are best ignored.

From time-to-time we are asked if we ever feel sorry for for trans people and my honest answer is yes. I feel sorry for young people who have been lied to, for older people who weren’t able to express their true sexuality earlier, and for parents stuck between a rock and a hard place. But we must also be honest.

Lying isn’t support. Pretending people pass isn’t kind and whatever anyone’s issues, they have no right at all to prevent women seeking single sex spaces for their needs. I’ll start listening when I receive the same courtesy and when the ground rules are established. Women are not men’s support humans and men don’t get to give our rights away.

The reason why I think trans women come on to forums like this is not particularly goady. I think it because they were socialised as males, and socialised to believe their voice counted. And now they are somewhat confused, that their voice isn't being heard, and their opinion isn't the prevailing one.

I agree and disagree with this. I do think Some of our very regular visitors are definitely goady because they've been coming here for years and they know exactly what they're doing. I do think you're right about the puzzlement that they feel as men that women are openly disagreeing with them. In real life women are generally not as vehement with unknown men because we don't know how they'll react but here they can't intimidate us physically so we say what we think

I agree. I can see some people believe they are a different sex, some people believe the earth is flat, some people believe the moon landings were fake and some people believe the earth was created in seven days. I give them all the same level of credence. I don’t hate them. I just think they’re wrong. If someone does think they’re a different sex, that’s fine. They can wear what they want, call themselves what they want and lobe who they want. What they can’t do is force other people to go along with them, and appropriate facilities belonging to the sex they wish they were.

I dont think the issue is about TW.

There seems to be an increasing number of threads now with the underlying theme that feminism is a false narrative, and it is just an excuse for victim hood.

This is why I mentioned earlier that I am not sure how "feminist" FWR is. there maybe the odd thread about feminism, but the overall context isn't.

ie some have a view either way on gender and sex which aren't based on any sort of feminism.

Another part of the problem is MNHQ enforcing, which no one asked for, that this issue, which however pressing certainly isn't the only issue for feminists, is somehow a niche side line.

Is it any wonder that some come on here thinking they can do what we experience as gate crashing in, but they think is a reponse to an open invitation.

I've kind of got a foot in both camps. I really believe that women should have safe spaces, but I also believe that some people can genuinely feel they should be a different sex from the one they are.

and I see so very similarities in the arguments between anti and pro trans activists. All the"they hate us" rhetoric is mirrored on each side.

and I know that my.opinion will go down like a lead balloon on here. But I think/hope we are all grown up enough to accept that others may feel differently from us and it's not a reason to attack an individual.

The reason why I think trans women come on to forums like this is not particularly goady. I think it because they were socialised as males, and socialised to believe their voice counted. And now they are somewhat confused, that their voice isn't being heard, and their opinion isn't the prevailing one.

What cheeses me off is when one of our resident scolders deliberately derails a discussion, usually with some disingenuous fuckwittery. I like the "Do not interact with the interupteron" unicorn picture that gets posted on those occasions though, it helps newbies avoid wasting their time on those who aren't posting in good faith and reminds the trolls that we aren't playing their game.

Perhaps start the Good Loo Project and get yourself a crowd funder on the go. And no im not being sarcastic!

Also there are often polls, and it’s clear that most people don’t support TRA demands.

A lot of the threads being referred to are in AIBU, not FWR. Those are useful, however much they get trolled, because the unhinged lack of empathy of genderists for anyone else shines brightly.

I felt that poster was pure Sherpa material.

That's bluntly put what I wanted to say but thought I'd be deleted, glad your post has been allowed to stand so far Mollyollydolly.