Thinking about the troll threads

@keeptoiletssafe I've just remembered that I actually quoted you and your research in a real life conversation this week about school toilets!

If you have already done this work, just go to the thread and post bump, or problem still not solved or ...

I am sure it appearing in recently updated others will then see it and find it useful.

Thank you. Yes I do occasionally and have given my research to various bodies HSE, Department of Education, MPs etc. I work and am a mum so do this in my spare time.

Do you post on any of the other boards, @Keeptoiletssafe? It seems to me that your information should be disseminated broadly. parenting, education (as schools are still problematic), disabilities etc. Like many of us, I suspect, I’d never properly thought about the safety aspects.

Thank you. I have done that but they get lost because threads move on so quickly. I actually thought the Supreme Court ruling would be the end of my campaign (yeay) as it would lead to better single sex designs coming back.

However, I never knew toilet talk would then go stratospheric. All talk on the Supreme Court verdict turns to toilets at the moment. When people keep saying to enclose loos and make them private and mixed sex (to mimic the comfort of home), I feel duty-bound to tell them what this means design-wise and why mixed sex enclosed designs are dangerous to the medically vulnerable, women and children.

There is another reason I post too. I want to be challenged and to hear all views. I want everyone to be safe. I am aware ‘stories’ are just that. I take care to verify the stuff I talk about.

I reckon, with the exception of times when public toilets were introduced, as street fouling and sanitation was so bad it was causing widespread illness and death, toilets have never been talked about by so much, by so many in this country.

I second this, @Keeptoiletssafe
I reckon the whole set of issues around provision of adequate safe toilets is something MNHQ ought to consider supporting a campaign on. Apart from the obvious importance of single sex facilities, as a parenting site there should be a push for more sensible provision for families. It’s bizarre how few places like zoos and museums where there are loads of people with kids - often one parent with more than one in tow, not all of the same sex, have appropriate mixed sex/family loos.

On another thread I suggested and would like to do again, that you start your own thread (not to stop you posting on others), but so your information is easily able to find.

Then it is easy to refer to, and can be bumped, every now and again.

Although you might find you become the Toilet Agony Aunt.

There are probably other FWRers who have their own area of expertise, who could do the same.

And then also helps those of us less coherent able to link to!

Just a thought.

I started using the FWR board (originally under a different user name) as a way of having discussions that I couldn't have elsewhere, with women who broadly felt as I did. It was also a way of finding out what was going on, as stuff often wasn't covered by the media, and also just to find some sanity and companionship, particularly in the darker days (esp pre-Forstater) when I think many of us were not and often could not be open about our GCness.

All of that AND the recipes (I've yet to try the Malay curry and wine liqueur recipes I've got stashed)/Tunnocks chat (teacakes for the win, I find the wafers a bit dry.)

And the recipes… not had those for a while.

It’s not boring hearing you repeat information. There will be new people on some threads for whom it is new information. The repetition has helped me firm up my understanding of the issues. You should know your expertise is valued because people @ you in threads where they know you can provide relevant information or clarify a point.

I think that must have been the period when I was just a reader. And it was a positive experience.

But the whole GRA consultation trickery made me join. The wake up call that even Government had been captured.

I suppose what I am saying is that it feels like an intrusion on what seemed to be a positive, proactive online space, even if on occassion it was giving support to women having a really bad time.

I've been caught out a few times by troll threads or trolls hijacking threads, but try and just unfollow and ignore.

But it has changed interacting even when first logging on and looking at new threads added etc..

I joined FWR to discuss feminism and women’s rights. Back when no one seemed to have any problem knowing what a woman was. Back when ‘gender critical feminists’ could focus on ways to get rid of harmful gender stereotypes (toys will be toys etc). Back when the scolders and trolls were oldfashioned MRAs and blokes (and some women) ‘just asking questions’.

Plus ca change…

It’s definitely a comfort place, I’m happy to argue in good faith, have a laugh with the witty women (and a few men) and generally chat about women’s rights. This issue is dominant, because it reflects society.

I started using FWR to stop myself going mad as I couldn't understand all the ppl who I agreed with on pretty much everything else, confidently state men in dresses were women and not just that, even more oppressed than actual women. I thought I was losing my mind.

FWR saved my sanity

In the beginning, around the time of Spartacus & Man Friday, it was about realising I wasn’t alone in thinking the ideology was both mad and dangerous.

It’s now about staying up to date, continuing to learn from those who are wiser and more erudite than me and finding out how I can contribute in real life.

I was actuallly wondering if anyone had thought that would be part of being on FWR.

Obviously we all use it for different reasons.

Partly asking as however long ago it was I first signed up, from having been a reader for some time, I dont remember it as being an element.

Now it clearly is, so more overt to those more recenlty joining.

And in fact to such an extent that someone has started another thread to this one on the issue!

For the lurkers
For the unsure
For those new to all this
For those who have concerns but are unsure of where to find the information/how to formulate responses
For the witty, funny, erudite responses.
To amuse myself by pissing about with haiku/ poetry

And this is just one part of it all. Most of us are actually doing stuff in rl too.

Yep.

It’s a lot of things to a lot of people. People will use it for what they want to.

Just wondering after reading responses to the OP what in fact is the value of FWR for those who join in? (There is no way of knowing if for instance only 25% of those on FWR respond to these threads or 80%!)

Was that the attraction to join FWR to spend time arguing with TRAs, knowing you wont change what they think? As a substitute for not being able to do this IRL?

Does this mean FWR is basically a form of therapy ie opportunity to let off steam. (This isn't meant to be a negative comment but a recognition that is often said on threads about moderating what any of us say IRL.)

Amongst other reasons.

Fab post @FortheloveofPetethePlumber .
In particular this:
"That absolute refusal to accept that women needed this to work for them too, and there needed to be give from the trans lobby as well as taking, is what drove the long, long court cases that ended in the Supreme Court confirming the law. It was caused by the behaviour of the trans lobby and the difficulties and damage caused to women by not permitting single sex spaces. If there'd been some discussion and willingness to listen and the capacity to care and do a little reciprocating, it probably wouldn't have needed to go to court - but we know it did. And it repeatedly does".

I've noticed that I seem to post more snarky posts than I used to - and realise it's that familiar feeling of dealing with whiny teenagers "ah but", "not fair" and all the rest. It's just exhausting seeing the determination of grown adults insisting on their right to access girls undressing etc.

This.

It is interesting FWR is now getting a lot of 'but reasoned discussion and debate and listening' now, after ten years of debating and listening and being doxxed and shouted at and insulted for doing it. #Nodebate was the mantra for years.

That absolute refusal to accept that women needed this to work for them too, and there needed to be give from the trans lobby as well as taking, is what drove the long, long court cases that ended in the Supreme Court confirming the law. It was caused by the behaviour of the trans lobby and the difficulties and damage caused to women by not permitting single sex spaces. If there'd been some discussion and willingness to listen and the capacity to care and do a little reciprocating, it probably wouldn't have needed to go to court - but we know it did. And it repeatedly does.

So the law has been clarified: women's single sex spaces include no men, at all, at any time. This is the same for all men, regardless of identity choice or certificated sex, and additional gender neutral spaces should be provided to accommodate those who prefer not to use sex based spaces. That's clear. It's not complicated. It's not what those men want to hear, but it's necessary for women's needs, equality and access to be equally met to mens.

It's too late for discussion at this point. It's over. It's done. The discussion can go and happen in the gender neutral spaces with those interested, and I wish them a lovely time.

And even if it wasn't too late at this point, and women hadn't had to fight through the courts with years of evidence that has stacked up of how this has disadvantaged, harmed, excluded and oppressed women, a) you would never get those men to agree that evidence existed or mattered or should impact on a man because to them women just aren't important - and this is why the law exists as there are men and women who don't believe in women's equality and give it very very grudgingly only when forced to as so many agencies including the PM is demonstrating - and b) it would have to start from the premise that there have got to be accessible facilities for all, equally, and no one can be left without a service.

As this includes women who need a single sex space/resource/service, the conversation is now over: you will never get the gender ideologues to agree to permit that. Those women have to lose everything for some men to be happy. And that's plain unacceptable. So where will nice 'discussion' take that?

According to many activist posters, it's just to endlessly wheedle and special plead for those men with the aim that women accept and agree that those women just don't matter next to the needs of men with trans identities and must be sacrificed in their better interests, and we accept a society that isn't equal or diverse and where some tax payers can't have services because more powerful members of society felt miffed about accessible services for them being allowed to exist. As in the case of Sarah Summers.

There is probably a stronger case for Human Rights there than the supposed right of a man to access a non consenting woman in a state of undress as his gender identity trumps everything of hers.

I’ve been on MN in general and FWR since it was called ‘Feminism and Women’s Rights’. My perception is that there are far more posters on FWR than in the past, but there are also more posters in general on AIBU, Chat, Parenting etc.

And I’ve just had a look at Active, and got to 10 FWR threads before I got bored scrolling.

I'm only interested in regaining all that's been taken from us, no matter what it takes, their problems are their own, and they're on the own when it comes to finding a solution to them or not, don't care.

Yes, that is pretty much where I am. I would include regaining the safeguarding of children.
The rest is just an intellectual exercise as far as I am concerned.