Teacher asked DD how she IDs

It's great to see your update OP. I had been wondering where things got to with the teacher's flag and it being clear (or not) on what the message was to children about gender identity at a whole-school level.

My experience is very much as SingleSex describes. My children's school has made some changes but fundamentally, they are still putting vulnerable children like my daughter at risk with how they approach gender identity.

In their case, they coerce children to believe that the only way to show someone respect or be kind to them is to validate their transgender identity. They don't accept that they need to follow the statutory safeguarding (KCSIE) guidance to differentiate between children who might be LGB from those who are gender questioning, nor do they recognise the significance of autism (part of this same section of KCSIE) and how it can become conflated with gender identity. They also have no interest in the Cass Report (referenced in this section of KCSIE..).

Plus they allow staff to freely express their gender identity belief to children, similar to your flag bearing teacher. Without clear evidence to the contrary, if I were in your shoes I would be sceptical that the school has a good handle on this, based on what you've said.

thanks very much for the info appreciate it!

In my experience, and quite a few others, saying one thing and doing another is a specialism of schools, hence all the FOI nonsense and official complaints. I would insist, if you are able, to get something in writing about this, both a public policy change and of course an apology. Assume this teacher is still doing it otherwise...

Absolutely. People are who they say they are. And it's personal/private anyway and I didn't think were supposed to question somebodies identity. Just to accept it.

Curious if there was any further fall out and how official the school made this new policy if you can share?

Sorry. Please ignore. This thread was over with.

Isn’t it against guidance for schools to promote sex stereotypes?

What an interfering, dangerous teacher.

Oops just noticed that this is all resolved and to some degree a "zombie thread".

Honestly it sounds as though she was being rather excessively nosey and trying to pry some kind of very personal confession out of her for vicarious enjoyment or in order to make a project of her...

Yes, sorry. Will ask for it to be taken down.

Wrong thread?

This is excellent news @S1894PCohen well done to you and especially your daughter. X

Also @Peregrina I think it was a trans flag, not a pride flag on the teachers desk which suggests even more that this teacher is an activist heavily into gender ideology and identity. Which is a worry, despite the update. Because who is to say she won't now find more covert ways to get her message across to pupils? Hopefully the op will keep her eye on it. Annoying that she has to though.

Thank you. This is a really helpful way to look at it.

I'd be uneasy about them making the opposite judgment.

I agree. However, in some cases it may be simpler to recognise that a more active intervention is required e.g. if parents are breaking the law to gain access to puberty blockers for their child.

But in other cases, I can (reluctantly) see why schools can't (in essence) tell parents how to parent on this. Just because I think I'm on the Right Side of History, doesn't mean I can expect schools to agree and therefore trample over parental responsibility in law.

The ideal solution would be to frame it as ensuring that any child and their parents have access to informed support from those qualified in this area.
If the long awaited gender questioning children guidance ever gets published, this would be the type of suggestion they should be making.

I had a look through it to refresh my memory on the content that could help with this and have grabbed some screenshots. The overall takeaway here is that it does seem to give schools a way to carefully introduce affirming parents to an alternative way of looking at it, with safeguarding at its core. Although, frustratingly, the one and only mention of the Cass Report in this part of the document does create quite a muddle between sexual orientation and gender identity 🤦‍♀️ It's completely unclear what sex a "lesbian" and a "transgender male" are in this example, therefore it's unclear who is feeling what kind of "pressure". I guess the key takeaway there is that nobody should muddle up sexual orientation and gender identity ever, because children might feel pressured - so that's a good thing overall.

From a legal liability perspective, I assume schools could say that they are currently following the draft Gender Questioning Children guidance in the absence of any other information from the DfE and that they will adapt any future practices as necessary when this document is finalised.

Some screenshots from the draft GQC document ⬇️ They are slightly muddled in order unfortunately and I can't seem to fix that.

"Do any teachers on here have examples that are nothing to do with gender identity on the line between safeguarding risk and ensuring that parents are making informed decisions? Child protection law sits under the DfE and schools are the front line. If they are concerned about the parents' ability to decipher information from misinformation, is this the point at which they should refer on?"

That's a good question - and a tricky one. Just as some schools have weaponised safeguarding (referring families to SS who don't immediately affirm a confused, mentally vulnerable child's decision they're the opposite sex), I'd be uneasy about them making the opposite judgment.

The ideal solution would be to frame it as ensuring that any child and their parents have access to informed support from those qualified in this area. If the long awaited gender questioning children guidance ever gets published, this would be the type of suggestion they should be making. Specifying the type of professional support that could be available while emphasising that adults or groups over invested in sex change for children should be kept well away.

DD is at high school and Jane, according to DD, gets changed for PE in a single use room as well as using toilets that aren’t the girls’.

It sounds like the Bolton area is getting its house in order on this kind of stuff, which is great.

That's one safeguarding risk ticked off successfully: the risk that Jane poses to girls is being managed successfully in a way that also supports Jane. I appreciate there are lots of viewpoints on this but for me, giving a trans-identifying student access to a third space is the best way forward (as described in the draft Gender Questioning Children guidance). It avoids the child feeling awkward in the single-sex space that is commensurate with their sex and it avoids anyone trying to decipher the child's motivation for wanting to access the opposite-sex space. It sounds like Jane probably isn't autogynophilic (you mentioned Jane is most likely gay) but as there's no way of looking in to Jane's head, a third space negates any of this risk too.

However, to continue on with Jane... the risk that's not being addressed is the risk to Jane of entering a pathway towards medical intervention, as per the warning in the Cass Report about social transition not being a neutral act. I really hope that school safeguarding leads grow a backbone and start safeguarding conversations with affirming parents - or refer them to Children's Services for further support if they can't.

The KCSIE guidance provides that opener. I appreciate it's difficult but safeguarding a child from any kind of risk like this is going to be. I might be oversimplifying things here but I would hope that schools can signpost affirming families towards the Cass Report, given it's mentioned in KCSIE. Ideally, they should also be able to suggest that parents might want to validate that whatever clinical support they seek is also aligned to the Cass Report so that, from a safeguarding perspective, everything joins up. What I don't know is where this kind of conversation becomes overreach into what is ultimately parental responsibility.

Do any teachers on here have examples that are nothing to do with gender identity on the line between safeguarding risk and ensuring that parents are making informed decisions? Child protection law sits under the DfE and schools are the front line. If they are concerned about the parents' ability to decipher information from misinformation, is this the point at which they should refer on?

That’s excellent news re Bolton. I did see the FWR table of responses they had when questioning Greater Manchester councils about their adherence to the SC ruling.

I had an infuriating experience with my youngest’s DD’s school that’s in the Bolton area a few years ago.

A boy first presented wearing school dresses but still being called his name etc. I’ll call him ‘John’.
He’s an effeminate and probably gay lad who’s always knocked around with the girls.
At first I thought his parents were sensible and letting him be gender non conforming (clothes are clothes etc) but my fears were realised when, at about age 8/9, he became known as ‘Jane’ (obviously not real names)

To cut a long story short, I discovered he had been told to use the girls’ toilets, so contacted the head about this.
Totally in a ‘can you confirm this is true?’ questioning way and stated the law re SS provision in schools. The head (who’s now left and been replaced by a great chap) was such a misogynistic be kinder. Absolute arsehole who, after I called him on breaking the law and his safeguarding responsibilities, basically told me that if Jane has to use the correct facilities then I’m responsible for him and his family’s upset feelings 🙄

He would not get it that, even though I never referred to Jane by name (he actually did in his emails and my enquiries just said biological boys who identified as trans), that I had no problem with Jane in general. Jane regularly came round to play and have tea with my DD. It was the detrimental effect on school letting Jane use opposite SS facilities and school’s safeguarding failures that I was complaining about.

Jane was allowed to use the unisex staff/accessible toilets and the other parents of girls felt the same as me. This was a couple of years ago now. DD is at high school and Jane, according to DD, gets changed for PE in a single use room as well as using toilets that aren’t the girls’.

I’m glad that my area have said they’ll follow appropriate guidelines and laws but I’m sure there’ll be lots of pushback and entrenched shit that’ll need to be addressed.

I'll come back and read properly later

Firstly apologies, I have not read the whole thread properly but have the gist. It does sound like the school is taking this seriously but I would press them to understand their teachings around gender and how they will review their training in light of this.

for others reading, we would always recommend complaining as this is a failure of safeguarding and the understanding of safeguarding for all the reasons outlined so articulately here. We have a how to complain to your school guide here.

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/resources-2/factsheets/#How_to_Complain_to_your_Childs_School

Great update @S1894PCohen. You’ve been a fantastic advocate for your DD.

That's very good news, and good on the school for owning it and taking steps to sort it out.
Thanks for updating, OP.

Oh this is a very heartwarming result. I’m so pleased there is sanity. Fantastic 👏

This.
100%
In the light of the Cass report, this teacher is a safeguarding liability, and is also sticking her beak to something that is none of her business.

That’s good news, well done to your daughter, she sounds great!
Hope this makes the teacher stop and think….

And also this...

The outlier schools must be challenged by the government and compelled to return to being politically impartial and to root out all adults using their role to gaslight children into the dangerous to children gender identity ideology.