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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Leisure centre call police on one woman with a hand sewn #redflag banner

110 replies

WhoopsINameChangedAgain · 28/09/2025 09:45

On Saturday 27 September 2025, in a leafy suburb of Newcastle upon Tyne, one lone woman protested the recent decision to change the leisure centre single sex changing rooms into one mixed sex area with no changes to the changing cubicles.

Despite the peacefulness of the protest, and considerable positive engagement from service users who stopped to chat to her, the staff called the police.

Thankfully the officer was rightly not concerned and happy for her to continue her peaceful protest.

https://x.com/wrn_neandnyorks/status/1972197438363713594?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

Pics for those not on twitter; police officer can be seen through doorway behind her.

Leisure centre call police on one woman with a hand sewn #redflag banner
Leisure centre call police on one woman with a hand sewn #redflag banner
OP posts:
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11
Keeptoiletssafe · 31/10/2025 22:41

DrPrunesqualer · 31/10/2025 18:31

Tbf. The legislation is already there to provide ss provision as the default with
mixed/ gender neutral if there is space

What needs to change is the law on building and service providers needs to be upheld
With the loss of building control officers from our councils and most now outsourced we no longer have the protections that we used to have.

New buildings and those undergoing major works must and always have ( inc prior to the changes) been required to conform to ss provision

The issue of gaps for seperate unisex and gn facilities outside of a bank of facilities must always consider privacy and dignity, hence no gaps
We simply can’t have gaps and provide privacy and dignity.

The only alternative therefore is to have
Ss facilities and Transwomen and trans men seperate facilities
with disabled and accessible cubicles placed within each of the four ‘types’. Most service providers do not have the space and hence are not required to provide all the variables

A coffee shop for example may only have room for one all encompassing toilet leading off the seating area. For privacy and dignity and to at least provide a toilet it must be fully enclosed with an alarm and emergency access from the outside.

Disabled facilities in schools are placed near entrances so that visitors can also use them. The % occupation in these buildings is low hence their multi use.

All of the above is already in the building regs and Bstandards.

Now that we are seeing more cases brought to tribunals because service providers are not following their obligations I’m hoping others will see through the previous abuse of the regs

I am so glad you emphasised the loss of building control officers. I take notice of many newer loos and can’t work out how they got signed off. I have spoken to the fire service about this too.

Single sex ambulant toilets can take a bit of pressure off disabled facilities. They should have door gaps too (obviously) as they are designed for frailer people.

Heggettypeg · 31/10/2025 21:15

MrsM1ggins · 31/10/2025 19:42

I assume that's because people "moan about it all the time". If it's common/constant then maybe it just becomes like wallpaper that you don't notice so the comments aren't escalated to management.

I am going to suggest to them that they should have a stand down with their staff to figure out if that's the case.

It reminds me of the old joke about "it's funny, people keep asking for those. But we don't stock them any more; there's no demand for them".
.

SidewaysOtter · 31/10/2025 21:09

Wow, go @MrsM1ggins, you absolute shero!

dallas cowboys hello GIF by Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders: Making the Team
MrsM1ggins · 31/10/2025 19:42

I assume that's because people "moan about it all the time". If it's common/constant then maybe it just becomes like wallpaper that you don't notice so the comments aren't escalated to management.

I am going to suggest to them that they should have a stand down with their staff to figure out if that's the case.

Shedmistress · 31/10/2025 19:34

How can they say they had no complaints when you @MrsM1ggins complained yourself?

BettyFilous · 31/10/2025 19:29

JellySaurus · 30/10/2025 09:24

Women go quiet and leave, rather than complain. Women feel they have to accept being anxious and afraid in order to access resources apparently provided for them.

Fight
Flight
Freeze
Fawn
Flop

The last reaction most women use is Fight, because we know we are easily overpowered by men. But written complaints are also Fight reactions. You are right - we need to complain. Loudly. Every time. Not just when something has gone wrong, but before something completely predictable happens.

I have been avoiding my refurbished local pool because of the vile ‘changing village’. I’m going to bite the bullet and go for a swim so that I can complain about it.

This is true. I cancelled my membership of a centre with lax changing room arrangements and found an alternative with properly enforced women’s changing rooms. I didn’t tell the old leisure centre why. I simply voted with my feet.

DrPrunesqualer · 31/10/2025 18:31

Tbf. The legislation is already there to provide ss provision as the default with
mixed/ gender neutral if there is space

What needs to change is the law on building and service providers needs to be upheld
With the loss of building control officers from our councils and most now outsourced we no longer have the protections that we used to have.

New buildings and those undergoing major works must and always have ( inc prior to the changes) been required to conform to ss provision

The issue of gaps for seperate unisex and gn facilities outside of a bank of facilities must always consider privacy and dignity, hence no gaps
We simply can’t have gaps and provide privacy and dignity.

The only alternative therefore is to have
Ss facilities and Transwomen and trans men seperate facilities
with disabled and accessible cubicles placed within each of the four ‘types’. Most service providers do not have the space and hence are not required to provide all the variables

A coffee shop for example may only have room for one all encompassing toilet leading off the seating area. For privacy and dignity and to at least provide a toilet it must be fully enclosed with an alarm and emergency access from the outside.

Disabled facilities in schools are placed near entrances so that visitors can also use them. The % occupation in these buildings is low hence their multi use.

All of the above is already in the building regs and Bstandards.

Now that we are seeing more cases brought to tribunals because service providers are not following their obligations I’m hoping others will see through the previous abuse of the regs

Keeptoiletssafe · 31/10/2025 12:53

MrsM1ggins · 31/10/2025 01:15

Thank you so much. It's great to get input from someone who has some expertise in this area.

I have been very critical of the toilets they have installed. Do you know if the previous versions of Approved Document T had the same definition of universal toilet? I have the 2024 release and the current facilities ARE NOT compliant, but I don't have any documents showing the rules at the time the work was done. If you have copies of the earlier versions of the relevent regs that would be really helpful.

I've been told the changes were done around covid.

Hello thank you. I have become an expert on the health and safety implications of door gaps after researching why they are disappearing for several years now!

This is a very long post where I am trying to condense a lot of information and reasoning (that I have mentioned a lot in the past to others) because you said the leisure centre was signposted to this thread. Apologies if I have repeated anything.

I will say I want everyone to be safe. The most vulnerable could be any of us (regardless of sex, gender etc) having a medical emergency. Women and children are more at risk of assaults in private spaces in public areas.

As to what happened when, Document T is based on British Standards BS6465 that have been round for a long time and are updated periodically. They or parts are due for renewal soon. There are 4 parts to it and I believe part 1 covers swimming pools. However, the British Standards cost a lot of money to buy and are normally only accessed by people such as architects. I haven’t got access to the Standards and all their versions. The info I posted upthread about gaps in from the standards at the critical time they were writing the 1992 Health and Safety legislation. I doubt anyone had a thought that the ‘woman’ definition would be contested or that everyone would be carrying a slim phone video camera in their hand at that time. The thing is, the reasons for the gap design to keep people safe and healthy hasn’t changed.

I think it was because toilet provision was becoming an ‘anything goes’ in terms of design in lots of venues that hadn’t followed standards, that the previous government decided to make the design requirements free and very accessible and put Doc T in the public realm. People were relying on venue toilets as government public toilet provision has all but disappeared.

I have researched Doc T consultations and analysis for why the detail about gaps being a health and safety measure was not mentioned. The gaps were not only not discussed as a positive, they were being discouraged for people with long term health conditions. I did not expect to find this result. This was due to a Stonewall campaign targeting private gender neutral toilets and transgender safety (based on a 2018 report where the worst thing that was detailed was two women pushing a man out of the ladies after he did not want to leave when told to) and designers who were on Stonewalls diversity award scheme prioritising transgender topics rather than focusing on their remit of looking at people with longterm health conditions. Most of the long term health conditions weren’t even mentioned. Their ‘evidence’ was that enclosed toilets were better because that was the preference of transgender people in New York nightclubs. This is all facts. I am not being controversial here - I can back this all up as the documents and government analysis are on the internet. My comments (about saving a strangers life due to a door gap) and my experience as a teacher, seeing seizures and hypos were ignored. So was a charity that wrote in. I have no idea if others said the same as I can only go on what I know personally regarding inputs. The consultation was so skewed it appeared that only 3% supported disabled facilities because most of the responses were mentioning transgender concerns.

When researching cardiac arrests and lamenting no one was collecting data, I saw a correlation between private design and assaults. Rapes and sexual assaults are more likely to happen in places where the perpetrator can’t be seen to be stopped. Disabled toilets (mixed sexed, private, enough space) were often a place to be ‘misused’ for consensual and non-consensual sex. For example, in a three year study, it was found there was one rape reported per school day in British school premises. This was a report compiled by the BBC in 2016 which was discussed in Parliament. Annoyingly the locations weren’t known. The examples I found were in a school store cupboard and disabled toilets.

I have written to the Health and Safety Executive and they have confirmed single sex facilities are the only ones that can have door gaps. They have said this is single sex designs C and D. Universal designs A and B (mixed sex, enclosed, sink inside) cannot. I have discussed with them the fact that they didn’t specifically mention door gaps for health and safety and that they should mention universal designs should have gaps if they are used in a single sex area. They acknowledge my concerns.

Document T does specify that universal toilets are sound resistant, private, have a safety lock that can be opened easily from the outside and the door swing can be altered to swing outwards in the event of someone collapsing by the door (this happened to us, we lifted someone over the door to enable them to drag the young woman away from the inward opening door). Without a door gap, people end up being in toilets, sometimes for days, without anyone noticing because the door safety features that are mentioned in Document T can end up being retrospective and not safeguarding or prevention.

I have done a lot of research into secondary school design (not covered under DocT). A common theme is private designs are misused for sex, drugs and are vandalised. This is more so if it’s unisex (commonly referred to as gender neutral). Hidden cameras are being used. Girls are avoiding using toilets (Tbf this has always been the case). Tragically, there have been secondary school children who have died in these private designs in the U.K. - I cannot say if the design was a contributing factor to a delay in cpr.

In contrast, for years in school design specifications, the designated private unisex toilet was by the entrance near the reception where it could be noticed who was going in and out. Mixed sex toilets require a lot more supervision. I also note OP you’re a teacher too. Checking who is in toilet blocks for fire drills is so much easier when there’s door gaps and you are being timed. If there are major changes to provision, the fire service do need to inspect.

I note you’ve said people are avoiding one swimming pool and going to another with single sex provision. This is in keeping with what I find. Even females that don’t want to use women’s toilets, then complain about feeling unsafe in both unisex and men’s toilets and that they less clean. The trend is men who don’t want to use men’s toilets more often want to use women’s toilets, not unisex. It is scientifically proven there are the most pathogens in unisex toilets in uk hospitals, the least in female toilets.

With my campaign I am arguing it is a reasonable adjustment for those with medical health concerns, to have a gap for health and safety. There are millions of people it this country with heart conditions, diabetes, epilepsy, asthma etc. who are more at risk. There’s a stroke every 5 mins and a heart attack every five minutes in this country. Likewise women and children are more affected by serious sexual assaults so need design that prevents adverse things happening in a cubicle. Practically, for the above, that’s a simple door gap. Practically, that means single sex design as the default with a single sex area in front of the cubicles. The exceptions are for young children and cleaners (as has always been the case).

If you want links to anything I have discussed, I can supply. I also use this diagram which illustrates some of what I have been saying much more succinctly!

For what happens with mixed sex toilets (with gaps), the WRN did some good images you could use too:
https://www.womensrights.network/school-toilets

Leisure centre call police on one woman with a hand sewn #redflag banner
WhoopsINameChangedAgain · 31/10/2025 06:14

I’m glad a local middle school teacher commented as I had been wondering how that works. Im a teacher and have taken children swimming for years. It’s especially challenging in changing villages, and if the child has a particular religious background

OP posts:
WhoopsINameChangedAgain · 31/10/2025 06:12

Thanks @Keeptoiletssafe , vital information. Now I think of it the gap under the shower cubicle they’ve added in sure is practically non existent. You’d not see if anyone has collapsed in it. And yes it’s extremely humid and hot in there now that so many people use it.

OP posts:
LesbianNana · 31/10/2025 03:10

RowingGeek · 28/09/2025 16:54

Women need to keep up the pressure. Perverts LOVE mixed-sex changing rooms. Remember the two men who were jailed for being in possession of 6,000 images of women and girls taken in changing rooms? They could only do that because pools have given up protecting our single-sex space.

I wish we had a vomit emoji. Pigs. No, pigs are intelligent. Perverted predators. Nonces. Sick fucks.

How many more women must be harmed? Don’t answer, I know. They don’t give a rat’s ass.

They KNOW it happens, feck’s sake!

LesbianNana · 31/10/2025 02:56

MrsM1ggins · 28/09/2025 12:24

Greetings from the flag bearer Grin. I understand that they used to have separate M/F changing rooms but they used the M space to extend the gym and made the F mixed sex. We did manage to speak to a member of staff while we were there (no manager on site) and pointed out that they have created a detriment to women (indirect sex discrimination) and also to women of certain faiths (indirect discrimination on the grounds of religion or belief). Planning to pop in during the week to speak to the manager. I've separately FOId the council for the equality assessment performed before the change and they don't have it - currently trying to see if one was done but I'll not be surprised if it wasn't or if it only considers SOME protected characteristics and ignores others entirely.

Go, you! It takes a lot of guts, courage, and conviction to put yourself out there like that. It only takes one person to make a difference!

MrsM1ggins · 31/10/2025 01:15

Thank you so much. It's great to get input from someone who has some expertise in this area.

I have been very critical of the toilets they have installed. Do you know if the previous versions of Approved Document T had the same definition of universal toilet? I have the 2024 release and the current facilities ARE NOT compliant, but I don't have any documents showing the rules at the time the work was done. If you have copies of the earlier versions of the relevent regs that would be really helpful.

I've been told the changes were done around covid.

Leisure centre call police on one woman with a hand sewn #redflag banner
Keeptoiletssafe · 31/10/2025 00:18

Hello finally caught up with this thread.
I campaign for safe loos so have been looking at cubicle design for a few years. I can give you my thoughts on why I think there should be single sex changing rooms as a default.

It used to actually discuss in older building regs, that single sex toilet cubicles have gaps (150mm) at the bottom of partitions and doors and gaps could be above a 2000mm door. This was for the following health and safety points:
Supervision
Prevention of Wilful Misuse
Ventilation
Cleaning

‘Supervision’ is making sure the occupant is ok. ‘Prevention of wilful misuse’ is about sex, drugs and vandalism.

I don’t know about changing rooms regulations but I know from manufacturers and cleaners some practical points of gaps and cubicles.

In a swimming pool, obviously humidity is high and you need to decrease standing water and get rid of hairs, plasters, bubbles, urine, blood, chlorinated water that will build up. To wash that all out and drain you need the door gaps. I know from research on toilets, bleach, which is used for preventing mildew and killing germs, is a nightmare for eating through cubicle partitions. Water also warps doors so they don’t shut.
You need ventilation to dry cubicles out as they are constantly in contact with water.

With toilets, doors need to have the ability to be able to open outwards, in case people collapse. There should be simple safety locks, easily released from outside for access in case of emergency. This is particularly important where elderly or disabled persons or children are involved.

So ‘Lockable’ does not mean totally secure. This has been abused and can be a particular hazard in unisex toilets which are designed to be sound resistant and private.

It is much safer, in particular for anyone medically vulnerable, not to be in a cubicle/room that is private. (For example 11% of cardiac arrests happen on the loo). It makes it worse for women and children if it’s a private cubicle/room that is in a mixed sex area. Leisure Centres have defibrillators but if someone starts to feel ill in the pool or sports hall they stop what they are doing and go to get changed or go to the loo. People need to know if they have collapsed in order to use the defibrillator in time.

According to one toilet manufacturer, they suggested a 5mm gap was needed from floor to door to prevent voyeurism. But then you lose the health and safety benefits. Voyeurism is a male crime. In toilets, I think the biggest threat is from hidden cameras. They are pretty ubiquitous now which is why I feel I don’t feel so bad mentioning it as I am not giving ideas to people. Maybe in the tougher humid pool environment they may not last but it is easier to spend time in a private unisex toilet with the extra ventilation and equipment they need, to position and adjust them.

With toilets there is no such new design as a mixed sex toilet with door gaps. In building regs mixed sex toilet cubicles have to be private.

To summarise: I know that if you have cubicles, you need gaps for health and safety therefore single sex cubicles with a single sex area in front of them should be the default.

MrsM1ggins · 30/10/2025 15:19

I forgot to mention, and probably should have, that I did complain about the facilities back in July when being shown around the leisure centre. Clearly commments/complaints to individual staff members don't always make it up the chain. I would assume this isn't only a problem in Gosforth, hence my call to please complain OFFICIALLY.

MrsM1ggins · 30/10/2025 12:34

WhoopsINameChangedAgain · 30/10/2025 08:36

Thank you @MrsM1ggins! Are you able to report anything else from your meeting?

Things went as well as they could have done really. We were able to have an open and honest conversation and it was clear that they care about their customers.

We discussed the comments made here and elsewhere about Gosforth (see attached), the issues with the mixed sex changing due to the layout of the CR and design of the cubicles. We specifically spoke about the inadequacy of the toilet provision for privacy, particularly in relation to menstruation / menopause.

We discussed the broader issues surrounding the move to mixed sex changing villages everywhere and the lack of risk assessment that preceeded that change. (Took the opportunity to talk about West Denton which will also be run by Better)

We spoke about indirect sex discrimination and indirect religion/belief discrimination.

They have committed to going away and discuss our points with their org. I don’t think we can ask for more; the people in the room arent the decision makers and don’t hold the purse strings.

More to come, I hope.

Leisure centre call police on one woman with a hand sewn #redflag banner
JellySaurus · 30/10/2025 09:24

MrsM1ggins · 29/10/2025 22:11

Greetings all! A follow up meeting with the leisure centre operator has thrown up an anomaly.... while women pretty much universally dislike mixed sex changing villages, particularly when they are dark, have blind corners and huge gaps for cameras between cubicles, the operator reports that have been NO complaints at the leisure centre we protested.

Please, I beg you all - if you see someething dodgy or are unhappy about changing or toilet provision at a leisure centre ask to speak to the manager and complain. Request a response to your complaint. If you don't want to complain in person most operators have a feedback form online where you can have your say.

They can't fix it if they don't know it's broken. We need to speak up.

Women go quiet and leave, rather than complain. Women feel they have to accept being anxious and afraid in order to access resources apparently provided for them.

Fight
Flight
Freeze
Fawn
Flop

The last reaction most women use is Fight, because we know we are easily overpowered by men. But written complaints are also Fight reactions. You are right - we need to complain. Loudly. Every time. Not just when something has gone wrong, but before something completely predictable happens.

I have been avoiding my refurbished local pool because of the vile ‘changing village’. I’m going to bite the bullet and go for a swim so that I can complain about it.

WhoopsINameChangedAgain · 30/10/2025 08:36

Thank you @MrsM1ggins! Are you able to report anything else from your meeting?

OP posts:
MrsM1ggins · 29/10/2025 22:11

Greetings all! A follow up meeting with the leisure centre operator has thrown up an anomaly.... while women pretty much universally dislike mixed sex changing villages, particularly when they are dark, have blind corners and huge gaps for cameras between cubicles, the operator reports that have been NO complaints at the leisure centre we protested.

Please, I beg you all - if you see someething dodgy or are unhappy about changing or toilet provision at a leisure centre ask to speak to the manager and complain. Request a response to your complaint. If you don't want to complain in person most operators have a feedback form online where you can have your say.

They can't fix it if they don't know it's broken. We need to speak up.

MrsM1ggins · 23/10/2025 00:38

That's the thing though, isn't it? Mixed sex "village change" is presented as the norm, so any objections are immediately outliers caused by prejudice rather than safeguarding.

dontcomeatme · 22/10/2025 22:22

I went swimming on Monday at Washington leisure centre and this thread popped into my head. Its a mixed sex changing village, with separate male and female toilets. The changing village has cubicles, lockers and showers. There are huge gaps under the doors and huge gaps above the doors, on both the showers and cubicles. Definitely not purpose built for mixed sex safety. I had never even noticed before but I suddenly felt very self conscious getting naked in the cubicle. I could reach my hand over the door, and at the bottom was about a ruler size gap. Maybe a bit smaller. Shocking!

MrsM1ggins · 01/10/2025 10:31

When I think about the thousands of girls filmed by the London gang I wonder how I would feel in their place. Would you want to know you'd been filmed and naked images of you are probably now on the internet? Or is it better not to know? What affect has this had on possibly thousands of girls and young women? Have they given up swimming/exercise forever? Will they have shorter, less healthy lives as a result?

HidingmyTrueIdentity2025 · 01/10/2025 10:21

I started using "family changing villages" as a mum of boys so have always found it useful and convenient. Luckily, I have never had or seen an incident (as far as I know). It is quite busy with families usually. I do however play on my phone while waiting outside the cubicle for my son and have never been challenged - whether because they don't challenge or because as a middle-aged mum, I'm probably not a threat.

TheignT · 01/10/2025 07:27

MrsM1ggins · 29/09/2025 20:27

Is there a gap above or below the partition wall to the adjacent cubicle? If so, there is a risk of voyeurism. No way the staff will spot it at floor level between cubicles

No there is a tiny gap above the door which I don't think is big enough to be an issue. There is a small gap under the door, I'm not sure if anyone could use that.

There are communal male/female changing rooms but you can't use them in school hours as they are for school groups.

Id honestly feel more vulnerable in the communal room as staff would be much less likely to know if something was happening in there, very easy at a quiet time for someone to go in there unnoticed.

I suppose we all assess danger differently.

MrsM1ggins · 29/09/2025 20:27

TheignT · 29/09/2025 20:23

I swim at a pool with a changing village that feels safe. It has a low wall separating it from the pool, the lifeguards are seated next to the wall so you always have staff who can hear what is going on in the changing area, nothing other than people getting changed. It always seems to work well.

Is there a gap above or below the partition wall to the adjacent cubicle? If so, there is a risk of voyeurism. No way the staff will spot it at floor level between cubicles