Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Richard Dawkin's new book warns against denial of scientific truth by ‘astonishingly vicious’ trans activists and other threats on science

363 replies

IwantToRetire · 25/09/2025 18:02

In The War on Science, Dawkins joins several scientists and philosophers contending that academic freedom and truth in universities was being stifled by diversity, equity and inclusion policies that promoted falsehoods under the banner of social justice.

“I draw the line at the belligerent slogan ‘trans women are women’ because it is scientifically false,” he said. “When taken literally, it can infringe the rights of other people, especially women.

“It logically entails the right to enter women’s sporting events, women’s changing rooms, women’s prisons and so on.

“So powerful has this postmodern counter-factualism become, that newspapers refer to ‘her penis’ as a matter of unremarked routine.”

Full article at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/09/25/richard-dawkins-trans-women-slogan-scientifically-false/ and at https://archive.is/zAFxS

Richard Dawkin's new book warns against denial of scientific truth by ‘astonishingly vicious’ trans activists and other threats on science
OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Helleofabore · 26/09/2025 13:33

MarieDeGournay · 26/09/2025 13:23

I found out about DARVO - 'deflect- attack-reverse-victim-and-offender', if I remember rightly - here on this board, and it was incredibly revelatory.

There is a lot of DARVOing in trans discourse.
Once you know what it is, it really jumps out at you as an obvious tactic for shutting down debate.

Howseitgoin has given a couple of examples of it here:
-introducing the issue of GG's health, and then accusing others of using it is a 'distraction technique'
-referring to old age and dementia in clearly negative terms, and then saying that others consider dementia to be offensive.

Classic DARVO.

Absolutely.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 26/09/2025 13:28

It's amazing how many people think doctors and scientists don't know what they're talking about.

RoseAndGeranium · 26/09/2025 13:27

Howseitgoin · 26/09/2025 10:16

You claimed stereotypes were a problem:

"which argues that women have been unjustly confined by a society in which sex status (i.e. man or woman) is held to require or entail conformity with a narrow stereotypical range of gender presentations and roles."

Which suggested stereotypes shouldn’t be maintained (that you seem to hold trans people responsible for when in fact it's the broader population that enthusiastically do). Your comment implied it's wrong to adhere to stereotypes hence the the logical conclusion being you were taking prescriptivist conformative approach on gender presentation.

"It is only the genderists who take any of those presentational/attitudinal variables and call them markers of womanhood, who tell young girls that they are "really boys" if they find it hard to cohere with gender stereotypes, particularly the male-gaze and/or porn-saturated box that our sexist society drags them towards."

The problem with this analysis is that regardless of what trans people do its the broader population that would continue to maintain limited gendered stereotypes. Gendered stereotypes have been around a lot longer than trans visibility so its patently false to hold them responsible.

The other problem with your analysis is that you seem to b under the false impression that gendered stereotypes are a monkey see monkey do phenomena. That there's no organic inclination influencing choices that maintain those stereotypes. You seem to be implying that embracing femininity or masculinity is a 'copying'/learned phenomena rather than there being any independent internal connection with that choice. It's as good as saying 'if I see gay people I will become gay'. But our choices often have deep evolutionary roots or genetic ones.

Embracing gendered stereotypes is more likely an extension of an evolutionary psychological drive to appear more attractive to the opposite sex so it's unlikely that stereotypes are changing anytime soon regardless how egalitarian society has become.

"It is only the genderists who take any of those presentational/attitudinal variables and call them markers of womanhood, who tell young girls that they are "really boys" if they find it hard to cohere with gender stereotypes, particularly the male-gaze and/or porn-saturated box that our sexist society drags them towards."

Again, no one is 'telling' anyone anything. It's simply a matter of a minority of individuals who consider their femininity or masculinity a defining aspect of their identity & want to embrace it to its capacity.

"Bloody hell. It is incredible, the degree of stubborn persistence in motivated misunderstanding."

Well, if you perceive the world thru the limited lens of contagion & monkey see monkey do it can certainly seem that way.

Edited

I think your problems with comprehension cluster around definitions and distinctions.
No one is saying trans gender people created gender stereotypes or holding them responsible for the broader social enforcement or submission to them. What has been said, often and correctly, is that gender ideology relies on gender stereotypes. Do you understand the difference?

How does gender ideology rely on gender stereotypes? Well, it takes some of the components of a stereotype about women (eg women have long hair, enjoy shopping, wear pretty dresses, are socially submissive and neurotic) and makes this the primary working definition of ‘woman’, over and above biology. Hence the question ‘how did you know you were a girl?’ can for gender ideologies be correctly answered with something along the lines of ‘because I always preferred dresses, enjoyed playing with barbies, and felt frightened when the boys did rough play’, but not ‘Buddy, my vagina made it pretty obvious and menstruation made it 100% unarguable’.
The traditional feminist position is the opposite of this in that it accepts the millennia old definition of biological sex (bodies organised around large/small gametes, see my previous post for a primer on this) but rejects gender stereotypes. Thus, if a female child were to say to a feminist ‘I love my slouchy jeans but hate dresses and I cut all my hair off cause long hair is annoying and football is my life’, the feminist would reply ‘good for you, kid, maybe one day you’ll be a Lioness’. Likewise if a boy told the feminist ‘i really love lipstick and Taylor Swift and omg I just want to dance’ the feminist would say ‘nice! Have you looked at any local dance groups?’.
Do you see how gender ideology not only accepts subjective gender stereotypes but reifies them as primary over the objective criteria of biological sex in defining the words ‘woman’ and ‘man’, whilst traditional feminism accepts biological sex as the criteria for defining the words ‘woman’ and ‘man’ but rejects the idea that either women or men should be expected to conform to gender stereotypes?
Not sure how I can be clearer, but let me know if you have trouble with any of that!

Igneococcus · 26/09/2025 13:25

Helleofabore · 26/09/2025 12:53

Me too!

Is there specifically an international award for Biology discoveries of this magnitude, Ig?

Not sure, I mean, there isn't even a Nobel category for us biologists, we have to aim for chemistry or medicine, although the Swedish Academy that hands out the Nobels gave some award to Carl Woese because he wouldn't qualify for a Nobel prize despite his ground breaking contribution to phylogeny. Maybe we can talk to them about a special award for Howsa.

MarieDeGournay · 26/09/2025 13:23

I found out about DARVO - 'deflect- attack-reverse-victim-and-offender', if I remember rightly - here on this board, and it was incredibly revelatory.

There is a lot of DARVOing in trans discourse.
Once you know what it is, it really jumps out at you as an obvious tactic for shutting down debate.

Howseitgoin has given a couple of examples of it here:
-introducing the issue of GG's health, and then accusing others of using it is a 'distraction technique'
-referring to old age and dementia in clearly negative terms, and then saying that others consider dementia to be offensive.

Classic DARVO.

ProfoundlyPeculiarAndWeird · 26/09/2025 13:20

Howseitgoin · 26/09/2025 10:16

You claimed stereotypes were a problem:

"which argues that women have been unjustly confined by a society in which sex status (i.e. man or woman) is held to require or entail conformity with a narrow stereotypical range of gender presentations and roles."

Which suggested stereotypes shouldn’t be maintained (that you seem to hold trans people responsible for when in fact it's the broader population that enthusiastically do). Your comment implied it's wrong to adhere to stereotypes hence the the logical conclusion being you were taking prescriptivist conformative approach on gender presentation.

"It is only the genderists who take any of those presentational/attitudinal variables and call them markers of womanhood, who tell young girls that they are "really boys" if they find it hard to cohere with gender stereotypes, particularly the male-gaze and/or porn-saturated box that our sexist society drags them towards."

The problem with this analysis is that regardless of what trans people do its the broader population that would continue to maintain limited gendered stereotypes. Gendered stereotypes have been around a lot longer than trans visibility so its patently false to hold them responsible.

The other problem with your analysis is that you seem to b under the false impression that gendered stereotypes are a monkey see monkey do phenomena. That there's no organic inclination influencing choices that maintain those stereotypes. You seem to be implying that embracing femininity or masculinity is a 'copying'/learned phenomena rather than there being any independent internal connection with that choice. It's as good as saying 'if I see gay people I will become gay'. But our choices often have deep evolutionary roots or genetic ones.

Embracing gendered stereotypes is more likely an extension of an evolutionary psychological drive to appear more attractive to the opposite sex so it's unlikely that stereotypes are changing anytime soon regardless how egalitarian society has become.

"It is only the genderists who take any of those presentational/attitudinal variables and call them markers of womanhood, who tell young girls that they are "really boys" if they find it hard to cohere with gender stereotypes, particularly the male-gaze and/or porn-saturated box that our sexist society drags them towards."

Again, no one is 'telling' anyone anything. It's simply a matter of a minority of individuals who consider their femininity or masculinity a defining aspect of their identity & want to embrace it to its capacity.

"Bloody hell. It is incredible, the degree of stubborn persistence in motivated misunderstanding."

Well, if you perceive the world thru the limited lens of contagion & monkey see monkey do it can certainly seem that way.

Edited

... that you seem to hold trans people responsible for ...

Where did I say that? How on earth would trans people have that power? I said that many trans people rely on these stereotypes for their self-identification into opposite-sex categories.

And by the way, it isn't trans status that is the core of the problem here. The whole point of the gender critical stance is that trans status is precisely irrelevant in the wide range of situations in which sex matters. Men, regardless of how they identify, are the problem, insisting as they have always done that womanhood exists within their eye and, that the bearers of the concept 'woman' are not sufficient-unto-themselves autonomous material entities but the projection, embodiment, instrument of men's needs.

EDIT: I didn't even say that "it's wrong to adhere to stereotypes". I specifically said that people conform or don't conform -- in accordance with their individuality.

Helleofabore · 26/09/2025 13:18

Howseitgoin · 26/09/2025 11:55

Greer is quoted as saying Caitlyn Jenner transitioned only because she was jealous of the Kardashian sisters limelight so if anyone enjoyed a good smear its GG.

Oh.. wait. Now we SHOULDN'T take note of what Germaine Greer has said and done because she too should be discounted from speaking about the area of her expertise because she expressed an opinion about something that someone thinks is not accurate or is not very pleasant to have said.

So, not Germaine Greer and not Richard Dawkins. Should we start a list?

Fuck!! If I had have known that Howsa was so wedded to this train of thought, I would have just fucking posted all the unpleasant things that some of people Howsa presented as appeals to authority. Well. Lesson learned.

Still. Someone who has the secret to BIMODAL SEX modelling is someone to consider an expert. So there is that...

RedNine · 26/09/2025 13:10

Beowulfa · 26/09/2025 13:02

So Howsitgoin has claimed the following on this thread:

-Caitlin Jenner didn't try on his own daughter's clothes
-Germaine Greer has dementia

Both proven to be bollocks.

I'm sure lurkers can decide for themselves whether this person is a) truthful and b) posting in good faith.

This really is one for the lurkers.

[waves to the lurkers] I too was once a #bekind-er.

Helleofabore · 26/09/2025 13:09

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 26/09/2025 13:04

I mean, yes. But I’m surprised you admit it. Is this your other personality posting??

😂

I mean, isn't that why Germaine was introduced onto this thread.

You cannot write the unexpected twists to this plot. It is really good today. All to discredit Richard Dawkins no less!

Helleofabore · 26/09/2025 13:06

Beowulfa · 26/09/2025 13:02

So Howsitgoin has claimed the following on this thread:

-Caitlin Jenner didn't try on his own daughter's clothes
-Germaine Greer has dementia

Both proven to be bollocks.

I'm sure lurkers can decide for themselves whether this person is a) truthful and b) posting in good faith.

But apparently Beowulfa, if Richard Dawkins expresses an opinion that can be considered not accurate enough on a topic on which he is not an expert, we should discount his expertise on evolutionary biology.

Oh... and don't forget the next pivot.

That Dawkins is quite correct, there are only two sexes for reproduction. However, there is this 'social' sex that changes who should and should not be accessing single sex provisions. And this means that Dawkins is also irrelevant on the definition of sex. Because there is more to sex classification than reproduction.

And... we are about to see, finally, the BIMODAL SEX MODEL. How exciting is that!!!! Finally!!!!!

lcakethereforeIam · 26/09/2025 13:05

Perhaps Howie should start a new thread for an announcement of this magnitude.

Post Hello GIF by Aquafaba Test Kitchen
BernardBlacksMolluscs · 26/09/2025 13:04

Howseitgoin · 26/09/2025 12:26

Of course. The obsessive focus is a distraction technique to stop talking about bi modal sex.

I mean, yes. But I’m surprised you admit it. Is this your other personality posting??

Beowulfa · 26/09/2025 13:02

So Howsitgoin has claimed the following on this thread:

-Caitlin Jenner didn't try on his own daughter's clothes
-Germaine Greer has dementia

Both proven to be bollocks.

I'm sure lurkers can decide for themselves whether this person is a) truthful and b) posting in good faith.

Helleofabore · 26/09/2025 13:02

NotBadConsidering · 26/09/2025 12:53

This bit might be relevant.

"An identity is an equation that is true for all possible values of the variable(s) it contains."

NotBadConsidering · 26/09/2025 12:59

Helleofabore · 26/09/2025 12:54

Is that to keep us occupied while waiting, NotBad?

It’s evidence enough of an equation in bimodal sex, isn’t it?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 26/09/2025 12:58

JanesLittleGirl · 26/09/2025 12:13

Is this an example of the empathy that you claim to have?

Maybe it demonstrates how agreeable he is, just like a real laydee

Helleofabore · 26/09/2025 12:57

I mean, it would be fitting to finally see the BIMODAL SEX chart on a thread about Richard Dawkins! That would fucking show him, wouldn't it? It would teach Dawkins a thing or two...

lcakethereforeIam · 26/09/2025 12:56

Here for the graph with labelled axis! It might even make Wikipedia!!

Happy Jennifer Aniston GIF
Helleofabore · 26/09/2025 12:54

NotBadConsidering · 26/09/2025 12:53

Is that to keep us occupied while waiting, NotBad?

Helleofabore · 26/09/2025 12:53

Igneococcus · 26/09/2025 12:49

With equations I hear, I'm so excited, I love a nice equation.

Me too!

Is there specifically an international award for Biology discoveries of this magnitude, Ig?

NotBadConsidering · 26/09/2025 12:53

Igneococcus · 26/09/2025 12:49

With equations I hear, I'm so excited, I love a nice equation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation

Equation - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation

Kucinghitam · 26/09/2025 12:51

I know I'm quite silly because I'm non-Righteous, female and middle-aged. But I think I would be able to just about wrap my simple lady-brain around a BIMODAL SEX graph with labelled axes.

Igneococcus · 26/09/2025 12:49

Helleofabore · 26/09/2025 12:48

Can we have no distractions please?

Howsa is going to present the BIMODAL SEX chart with the axis clearly labelled so we can get get educated.

With equations I hear, I'm so excited, I love a nice equation.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 26/09/2025 12:48

Howseitgoin · 26/09/2025 12:24

Ive seen the Netflix show & that's false.

Netflix you say?! Why didn’t you mention that before? Oh my goodness I totally accept every word you say now it’s on Netflix.

Helleofabore · 26/09/2025 12:48

Can we have no distractions please?

Howsa is going to present the BIMODAL SEX chart with the axis clearly labelled so we can get get educated.