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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Richard Dawkin's new book warns against denial of scientific truth by ‘astonishingly vicious’ trans activists and other threats on science

363 replies

IwantToRetire · 25/09/2025 18:02

In The War on Science, Dawkins joins several scientists and philosophers contending that academic freedom and truth in universities was being stifled by diversity, equity and inclusion policies that promoted falsehoods under the banner of social justice.

“I draw the line at the belligerent slogan ‘trans women are women’ because it is scientifically false,” he said. “When taken literally, it can infringe the rights of other people, especially women.

“It logically entails the right to enter women’s sporting events, women’s changing rooms, women’s prisons and so on.

“So powerful has this postmodern counter-factualism become, that newspapers refer to ‘her penis’ as a matter of unremarked routine.”

Full article at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/09/25/richard-dawkins-trans-women-slogan-scientifically-false/ and at https://archive.is/zAFxS

Richard Dawkin's new book warns against denial of scientific truth by ‘astonishingly vicious’ trans activists and other threats on science
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8
Howseitgoin · 25/09/2025 22:22

Imnobody4 · 25/09/2025 22:14

From a years old article in 'Vice' a now defunct site.
'Vice News controversy encompasses a range of issues, most notably widespread allegations of a toxic, sexist "boys' club" culture leading to multiple sexual harassment settlements within Vice Media. Further controversies include accusations of biased reporting and censorship related to Saudi Arabian government funding, the use of an offending editor in a Khmer Rouge documentary, and a general struggle to maintain profitability and a sustainable business model, culminating in Vice Media filing for bankruptcy protection in 2023.'
And you've stored it away, a bit creepy. Are you friends with the author?

The tweets are linked to the article so no, discrediting Vice won't make them disappear.

NotBadConsidering · 25/09/2025 22:22

Howseitgoin · 25/09/2025 22:20

Dawkins is a world class scientist so he knows only too well no one is suggesting reproductive categories don't exist rather ‘Sex’ is often semantically flattened into a binary model, for which individuals are classified as either ‘female’ or ‘male.’ A more expansive definition of sex is bimodal—with most individuals falling within one of two peaks of a trait distribution. However, even a bimodal model is an oversimplification, since ‘sex’ comprises multiple traits, with variable distributions. Individuals may possess different combinations of chromosome type, gamete size, hormone level, morphology, and social roles, which do not always align in female- and male-specific ways or persist across an organism’s lifespan. Reliance on strict binary categories of sex fails to accurately capture the diverse and nuanced nature of sex.

In other words, the guy knows better but is looking for pay back after the left hung him out to dry.

Yes, we’ve heard your “sex isn’t binary” nonsense before. It’s all so trite. Give us something novel for a change.

Howseitgoin · 25/09/2025 22:20

IwantToRetire · 25/09/2025 21:59

So if someone is a misogynist and says sex is a biological reality, they cant really mean it, are lying or what.

Complete non sequitur

Unless of course you are an undercover member of AGCL who will say something they believe isn't true because somebody who in their purity politics is "the enemy" it isn't true when they say. But when you say it is true.

The whole point is to try and get the population as a whole to accept and be able to say that sex is biological.

Based on your logic we will never get 50% of the population to say it, because I suspect 50% if not more of the population have unpleasant ideas.

So the believe, knowledge that women are a biological reality will never be a majority position, because the only time it has meaning is when they have the purity stamp of approval.

Dawkins is a world class scientist so he knows only too well no one is suggesting reproductive categories don't exist rather ‘Sex’ is often semantically flattened into a binary model, for which individuals are classified as either ‘female’ or ‘male.’ A more expansive definition of sex is bimodal—with most individuals falling within one of two peaks of a trait distribution. However, even a bimodal model is an oversimplification, since ‘sex’ comprises multiple traits, with variable distributions. Individuals may possess different combinations of chromosome type, gamete size, hormone level, morphology, and social roles, which do not always align in female- and male-specific ways or persist across an organism’s lifespan. Reliance on strict binary categories of sex fails to accurately capture the diverse and nuanced nature of sex.

In other words, the guy knows better but is looking for pay back after the left hung him out to dry.

Imnobody4 · 25/09/2025 22:14

Howseitgoin · 25/09/2025 21:37

Edited

From a years old article in 'Vice' a now defunct site.
'Vice News controversy encompasses a range of issues, most notably widespread allegations of a toxic, sexist "boys' club" culture leading to multiple sexual harassment settlements within Vice Media. Further controversies include accusations of biased reporting and censorship related to Saudi Arabian government funding, the use of an offending editor in a Khmer Rouge documentary, and a general struggle to maintain profitability and a sustainable business model, culminating in Vice Media filing for bankruptcy protection in 2023.'
And you've stored it away, a bit creepy. Are you friends with the author?

RedLeggedPartridge · 25/09/2025 22:10

Is this the same guy who said foetuses with Downs should be aborted and their parents start again?
I have very low regard for anything he says.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/richard-dawkins-downs-syndrome-disability-b1848956.html

NotBadConsidering · 25/09/2025 22:09

Howseitgoin · 25/09/2025 22:08

I'm saying that anti trans positions are politically expedient/'cleansing'. IE I'm 'questioning' his motives.

And I'm also questioning the motives of those that white wash rape apologists & bigots for their own political expediency.

Yes, you’ve tried this all before. Do you have anything original to say today?

Howseitgoin · 25/09/2025 22:08

OldCrone · 25/09/2025 21:56

I don't understand your logic here. What do you mean by "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

Are you saying that because someone has done something sexist, we shouldn't agree with anything he says? So if Dawkins is sexist, therefore transwomen are women, because he says they're not? Is that it?

I'm saying that anti trans positions are politically expedient/'cleansing'. IE I'm 'questioning' his motives.

And I'm also questioning the motives of those that white wash rape apologists & bigots for their own political expediency.

IwantToRetire · 25/09/2025 22:07

ErrolTheDragon · 25/09/2025 21:30

Anyway, thanks for the thread, @IwantToRetire, it sounds like it may be an interesting book - It’s notable that Dawkins has focussed on the trans agenda, presumably some of the other authors are addressing various other areas where anti-scientism is problematic.
This quote from the piece has broad applicability:

“There’s this post-modern hubris which presumptuously and falsely dismisses science as a social construct. The human conceit here is the idea that personal feelings can change reality.”

“There’s this post-modern hubris which presumptuously and falsely dismisses science as a social construct. The human conceit here is the idea that personal feelings can change reality.”

Oh no - someone questioning queer politics and its need to challenge physical facts in order to "disrupt".

Even when that disruptions denies someones lived reality.

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IwantToRetire · 25/09/2025 22:05

PrizedPickledPopcorn · 25/09/2025 21:35

I’m surprised. He didn’t start out there, at least if that was his belief he did a good job of hiding it.
He always seemed such an angry man, he seemed on board with the whole TRA rage aesthetic.

There is evidence be believed and said to publicly long before many women now preening that somehow they are the figure heads ofGC campaigning.

So many threads are now based on posters personal feelings about somebody. Or worse some rumour they heard 15 years ago.

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IwantToRetire · 25/09/2025 21:59

Howseitgoin · 25/09/2025 21:48

Dawkin's history of misogyny seems pretty original here.

What? The enemy of my enemy is my friend even if he's sexist?

So if someone is a misogynist and says sex is a biological reality, they cant really mean it, are lying or what.

Complete non sequitur

Unless of course you are an undercover member of AGCL who will say something they believe isn't true because somebody who in their purity politics is "the enemy" it isn't true when they say. But when you say it is true.

The whole point is to try and get the population as a whole to accept and be able to say that sex is biological.

Based on your logic we will never get 50% of the population to say it, because I suspect 50% if not more of the population have unpleasant ideas.

So the believe, knowledge that women are a biological reality will never be a majority position, because the only time it has meaning is when they have the purity stamp of approval.

OP posts:
NotBadConsidering · 25/09/2025 21:57

Howseitgoin · 25/09/2025 21:48

Dawkin's history of misogyny seems pretty original here.

What? The enemy of my enemy is my friend even if he's sexist?

I mean your arguments are all the same. Do you have an original thought today?

OldCrone · 25/09/2025 21:56

Howseitgoin · 25/09/2025 21:48

Dawkin's history of misogyny seems pretty original here.

What? The enemy of my enemy is my friend even if he's sexist?

I don't understand your logic here. What do you mean by "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

Are you saying that because someone has done something sexist, we shouldn't agree with anything he says? So if Dawkins is sexist, therefore transwomen are women, because he says they're not? Is that it?

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 25/09/2025 21:51

SourdoughMama · 25/09/2025 19:49

Do I need to read Mein Kampf too to know that it was a bunch of Fascist BS?

You defend these creeps, perverts, & pedos. I'll read pop science from people who haven't been fired for being inappropriate with students, or being disgustingly unrespectful with the human remains of indigenous peoples ( again leading to their firing).

I'm sure there are plenty of people who write good books without being documented ( and photographed) on the Lolita express.

I fighting GI means defending these people... Well id rather stand for womens rights and safety than defend those who are a known threat.

oh mate. If you are under the impression that there are no trans paedos, perverts and creeps then I have some news for you…

Howseitgoin · 25/09/2025 21:48

NotBadConsidering · 25/09/2025 21:44

Do you have anything original to add to the discussion?

Dawkin's history of misogyny seems pretty original here.

What? The enemy of my enemy is my friend even if he's sexist?

NotBadConsidering · 25/09/2025 21:44

Howseitgoin · 25/09/2025 21:37

Edited

Do you have anything original to add to the discussion?

Howseitgoin · 25/09/2025 21:37

IwantToRetire · 25/09/2025 18:02

In The War on Science, Dawkins joins several scientists and philosophers contending that academic freedom and truth in universities was being stifled by diversity, equity and inclusion policies that promoted falsehoods under the banner of social justice.

“I draw the line at the belligerent slogan ‘trans women are women’ because it is scientifically false,” he said. “When taken literally, it can infringe the rights of other people, especially women.

“It logically entails the right to enter women’s sporting events, women’s changing rooms, women’s prisons and so on.

“So powerful has this postmodern counter-factualism become, that newspapers refer to ‘her penis’ as a matter of unremarked routine.”

Full article at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/09/25/richard-dawkins-trans-women-slogan-scientifically-false/ and at https://archive.is/zAFxS

Yup, 'How To 'Clean Up' My Legacy' By Richard Dawkins

https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-atheist-movement-needs-to-disown-richard-dawkins-999/

PrizedPickledPopcorn · 25/09/2025 21:35

I’m surprised. He didn’t start out there, at least if that was his belief he did a good job of hiding it.
He always seemed such an angry man, he seemed on board with the whole TRA rage aesthetic.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/09/2025 21:30

Anyway, thanks for the thread, @IwantToRetire, it sounds like it may be an interesting book - It’s notable that Dawkins has focussed on the trans agenda, presumably some of the other authors are addressing various other areas where anti-scientism is problematic.
This quote from the piece has broad applicability:

“There’s this post-modern hubris which presumptuously and falsely dismisses science as a social construct. The human conceit here is the idea that personal feelings can change reality.”

ErrolTheDragon · 25/09/2025 20:58

Dragonasaurus · 25/09/2025 18:59

He was lambasted by prick news in 2021 for pointing out that transwomen aren’t women, and was stripped of his ‘humanist of the year’ award the same year, and, I think, kicked out of at least one organisation because of his astounding views! As an evolutionary biologist, he seems pretty up to speed with the idea that there are exactly 2 sexes

There was also a funny incident where iirc someone on Twitter told him about the ‘womens declaration’ in tones of horror, to which he replied with thanks for letting him know and that he’d signed it.Grin

I think he took a somewhat similar path to jkr, in fact - initially cautious but then ‘to hell with that nonsense’ and took quite a lot of abuse as mentioned - someone also vandalised his car shortly after he nailed his colours to the realist mast.

Dragonasaurus · 25/09/2025 20:54

Isn’t Stephen Fry a humanist? He never has a problem taking away women’s rights 🙄

deadpan · 25/09/2025 20:45

Dragonasaurus · 25/09/2025 18:59

He was lambasted by prick news in 2021 for pointing out that transwomen aren’t women, and was stripped of his ‘humanist of the year’ award the same year, and, I think, kicked out of at least one organisation because of his astounding views! As an evolutionary biologist, he seems pretty up to speed with the idea that there are exactly 2 sexes

Ol' Alice Roberts was probably responsible for humanist ousting. That wonderful anthropologist who believes trans women are women but estranged herself from her own parents due to their Christianity.

Imnobody4 · 25/09/2025 20:41

SourdoughMama · 25/09/2025 19:49

Do I need to read Mein Kampf too to know that it was a bunch of Fascist BS?

You defend these creeps, perverts, & pedos. I'll read pop science from people who haven't been fired for being inappropriate with students, or being disgustingly unrespectful with the human remains of indigenous peoples ( again leading to their firing).

I'm sure there are plenty of people who write good books without being documented ( and photographed) on the Lolita express.

I fighting GI means defending these people... Well id rather stand for womens rights and safety than defend those who are a known threat.

Calm down dear. You seem to be happy to form your opinions on the basis of other people's opinions. Try going to original sources, it's the grown up thing to do.

I'm not defending anyone. If all you want is pop science there are plenty. Read what you want.

You haven't really got the hang of what reading is for. Reading intelligent people who you disagree with is a very useful exercise, especially if you try to engage with text instead of projecting what you think they've said. Maybe you'll change or modify your views. Or become clearer about why you are right.

IwantToRetire · 25/09/2025 20:15

The War on Science: Renowned Scientists and Scholars Speak Out About Current Threats to Free Speech, Open Inquiry, and the Scientific Process Hardcover – 25 Sept. 2025
by Lawrence Krauss (Editor), Richard Dawkins (Contributor), Steven Pinker (Contributor), Niall Ferguson (Contributor), & 4 more

An unparalleled group of prominent scholars from wide-ranging disciplines detail ongoing efforts to impose ideological restrictions on science and scholarship throughout western society.

From assaults on merit-based hiring to the policing of language and replacing well-established, disciplinary scholarship by ideological mantras, current science and scholarship is under threat throughout western institutions. As detailed by this group of prominent scholars – who range across many different disciplines and political leanings – the very future of free inquiry and scientific progress is at risk.

Many who have spoken up against this threat have lost their positions, and a climate of fear has arisen that strikes at the heart of modern education and research. Banding together to finally speak out, this brave and unprecedented group of scholars issues a clarion call for change.

Contributors: Richard Dawkins; Alan Sokal; Niall Ferguson; Gad Saad; Anna Krylov; Jay Tanzman; John Armstrong; Jerry Coyne; Luana Maroja; Sally Satel; Geoff Horsman; Alessandro Strumia; Roger Cohen; Amy Wax; Alex Byrne; Moti Gorin; Judith Suissa; Alice Sullivan; Dorian Abbot; Steven Pinker; Nicholas Christakis; Richard E. Redding.

Even if you ignore the quote from Dawkins, the issue of free speech, being sacked, etc., have all been topics of threads on FWR.

And in each instance the reality is in campaigning for equal rights to express believes it is inevitable that some believes will clash. But if you only campaign for those you agree with to have free speech, then it is just possible you dont understand the issue you are campaigning on.

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IwantToRetire · 25/09/2025 20:08

Damned for association.

I cant believe yet again a thread is being dumbed down to same old splitism arguements

Let alone the facile, infantile suggestion that in creat a thread that acknowledges a fact, ie a book has been published which includes a statement about the reality of science.

Sometimes I wonder if there are any real living human beings posting on FWR or just 2 opposing chat bots that churn out the usual cliches.

Many campaigns, including for instance equal rights for women, abortion rights were won by those with many political differences who recognised they did share a common cause and it would help that cause to be won, if a broad based coalition worked together to bring it about.

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OldCrone · 25/09/2025 20:06

SourdoughMama · 25/09/2025 19:19

Dawkins is one Author of the 39(?) who contribute to the book.

Most of whom were notable friends of Epstein ( including the editor who put the book together, or have well know history of sexual assault, or racism when you actually look into their backgrounds.

But hey sure, creepy men to predate on their students is totally what feminism is all about (/s)

I wonder if Dawkins is on the Epstein List as well ?

Can you be more specific? State who did what and when. Otherwise I'll assume that you're just making this up.

Please also explain how anything that any of these people might have done means that men are women if they say they are.