Well, hello Emma Watson

OK but it's not your call. If we say it has a negative impact on women, then it does, because we are women and we say so.

😂
Just because you as an individual declares that something negatively affects you - it doesn't follow that society must therefore automatically be organised in ways that also impact others. Surely you understand this basic principle?

They're based on science and reality.

Yet reason, judgement and all the evidence says it does. You cannot argue against that.

Er…. You don’t know what a male and a female is? Dear Lord. Your parents and teachers failed you so badly. You poor poor child.

Because (as you surely know) I do not share your understandings of "male", "female" and "female space". I think your understandings of these things are reductive, false and based on ignorance/ prejudice.

OK but it's not your call. If we say it has a negative impact on women, then it does, because we are women and we say so.

If you believe that not getting changed next to women with penises has a negative impact on you, feel free to campaign for separate spaces for people who identify as whatever the fuck it is you believe both you and trans identifying men are identifying as.

Tandora has tried to complicate it more recently, as the house of cards tumbles further every day, but ultimately the argument is the lie that trans women are women. That's the dishonest premise that all of this nonsense stands on, and it's why they all tried to enforce No Debate.

It's untrue, we know it's untrue, they know it's untrue. If Tandora really cared about safety for trans people, the emphasis would be on campaigning for third unisex spaces and for men to welcome TW in their spaces. Instead, the priority has always been to pressure women to accept men in their spaces, sometimes by exploiting DSDs, always with dishonest and absurd premises.

The priority is clear. Male wants over female needs and reality itself.

How do humans reproduce?

Ah yes. Laurie Penny. A woman who claims not to be a woman because she thinks being a woman is so boring and uncool unless you are the kind of woman who has a penis, in which case it's stunning and brave, and who thinks we don't need a word for female people.

So progressive. Much feminist.

because I don't believe that it does. This is not a pretence, it is my sincerely held opinion, based on reason, judgement and evidence.

How hard is that for you to understand?

Again, I am very familiar with your arguments, and they are not at all hard to understand.

I entirely disagree with them.

It is possible for someone to both understand an argument and also to disagree with it.

Are you able to acknowledge this?

I don't know Tandora, why are you still pretending that the inclusion of trans identifying men in women's spaces doesn't have a negative impact on women?

@ThatCyanCat

"others do just think women have a moral duty to shut up and submit when men want something, and the damage and losses they sustain as a result are the cost of freedom."
Yes. Spot on. It's an unwritten rule. Many of the people who believe that are "feminists" of the women-are-men-with-tits persuasion. They are shocked by other women reneging on the "contract".

@Tandora Explain to me, in your own words, how including a male in FEMALE spaces, does not cancel out keeping female spaces female only?

Penny claims to be a feminist. Look into her response re the Wiki Spa; its enlightening. She said girls faced with a naked erect penis in their spaces should nit be rude and look away, to paraphrase.

Funny how he is ignoring my question 🤔

It seems hugely significant to hear this coming from Watson.

The arts have been lost, and have shown few signs of returning to sanity - this is very heartening, if slightly uncomfortable to watch. The most fervent adherents are the ones with the most to lose.

So how can it be a woman’s toilet if it’s allowing men in? Surely then it would be a mixed sex toilet. So all men can come in. I mean, you can’t exclude some men and include others. That’s discrimination. So you would effectively have no women’s toilet. And males with a trabs identity would be required to share toilets with the very men they claim to be afraid of. So it’d be a bit of an own goal wouldn’t it?

I am advocating for the exclusion of MALES from FEMALE toilets.

A male with a cock and balls in a dress is a male. That he pretends to be 'transwoman' doesn't change the fact he is male.

Female facilities are based on SEX. Not 'identity'. Therefore, all males, regardless of their identity, must stay out of FEMALE spaces.

How hard is that for you to understand?
That putting a fully intact male in female spaces, breaches female HUMAN RIGHTS, and the law? And you advocate for the breach of the female human rights.

Explain to me, in your own words, how including a male in FEMALE spaces, does not cancel out keeping female spaces female only?

Never heard of this Laurie Penny person. Had to google. Wikipedia informs me:

Penny came out as genderqueer, pansexual and polyamorous in 2015.

Dear Lord, how tedious.

Then have your third space, additional unisex toilets and congratulate yourself for undressing and urinating among men, and let the rest of us who don't subscribe to your religion have the normal and legal spaces we need in order to be included in society. If you actually cared about inclusion, you'd be for adding options, not removing them.

Tandora will now accuse you of dehumanising reducing people to their sexual organs and reproductive ability. Because she does not understand that categories do not reduce anyone to anything, they simply find the common trait shared by everyone in that category and nobody outside of that category. There is plenty of diversity among women but their shared trait is that they are all female, and no man is female.

However you justify it, and whatever the logic is, the factual result is the same.

You are advocating for the exclusion of trans women from women's toilets. That is what people are upset about - the exclusion of trans women from using women's toilets, not the idea that women's toilets should exist.

You think these two things are logically impossible:

1. The inclusion of trans women in the use of women's toilets
2. The existence of women's toilets.

You think 1 cancels out 2. I do not. You see 1 and 2 as mutually opposing/ exclusive. I do not.

That is where we disagree.

Very insightful.

She needs to do some more self reflection, away from the public eye.

There's bugger all honesty in the privileged TWAW bubble, which is why they flail about not knowing what's up - when everything is performative and nothing is informed by reality, it must be hard to have no solid ground beneath your feet.

It's cowardly. They think re-naming a male to 'trans person' will make a difference. It won't. A wolf in sheep's clothing is still a wolf. A male with a cock and ball sack is still a male. Even if you call him a 'transwoman'.

It is male vs female. That's it. Nothing else.