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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Well, hello Emma Watson

884 replies

crumpet · 24/09/2025 22:11

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-15130209/Harry-Potter-Emma-Watson-treasures-J-K-Rowling-trans-rights.html

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Newsenmum · 02/10/2025 19:13

GallantKumquat · 30/09/2025 01:32

Grint's 'auntie' comment was fairly innocuous: "I don't necessarily agree with everything my auntie says, but she's still my auntie. It's a tricky one".

But, it has to be remembered what we're we're talking about: cancellation was an act of terror. Many lost their jobs, friends, acquaintances, and professional colleagues - even family members - over the issue. Nothing can really describe the sensation of having your life turned upside-down and the people who you once counted as as friends become part of an unrecognizable mob and the instruments of your downfall.

Rowling would have thought that her generosity, personal integrity and the strength of her professional relationships would have insulated her from that. Instead Watson, Radcliff, Grint and countless others turned against her at the drop of a hat and only thing that saved her was the brute force of her wealth and established fame. But as for the people around her, the majority could have been picked out of Lord of the Flies. It is an incalculable betrayal that goes far beyond any one given action or statement.

Edited

Think Grint’s comments were spot on and perfectly reasonable, especially given the pressure he was under (and probably fear of backlash).

Helleofabore · 02/10/2025 18:55

Yawhat · 02/10/2025 18:52

Some men would happily shag a tree stump, so even if his daydreams were true, it's hardly some great flex.

But who could willingly believe someone who already blatantly lies about the most foundational part of his identity? He's the boy who cries wolf and should therefore be paid no attention.

Oh my!!

This reminds me of the things that I learn off MN. Like the blokes who stick their dicks in manhole covers or anything with a hole big enough on the road or the street.

I never knew the depravity that existed. And I really feel I didn’t need to know this.

Yawhat · 02/10/2025 18:52

NeonFish · 02/10/2025 09:05

Lol that reads like a porn fantasy of a man who can't get women to date him so overcompensates by trying to convince us that 'no, really, tonnes of men do want to date us! Honestly! Seriously! For real!'

All lies. I would not believe one single word that came out of his mouth. It's all fantasy and wishful thinking. Just like those reddit posts where a 'MTF' transwoman says a woman in the ladies asked him for a tampon. It's just all porn-soaked fantasy.

Some men would happily shag a tree stump, so even if his daydreams were true, it's hardly some great flex.

But who could willingly believe someone who already blatantly lies about the most foundational part of his identity? He's the boy who cries wolf and should therefore be paid no attention.

SionnachRuadh · 02/10/2025 18:19

I wish that one of these days, Critical Drinker would get off the fence and tell us what he really thinks

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Ddakji · 02/10/2025 12:41

WeeGeeBored · 02/10/2025 12:39

Not sure about HBC but I am pretty sure that Fiennes came out in support of JKR.

Yes, he did.

www.theguardian.com/film/2022/oct/25/ralph-fiennes-defends-jk-rowling

WeeGeeBored · 02/10/2025 12:39

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 01/10/2025 21:32

None of them have said that trans women are not women, to my knowledge.

Not sure about HBC but I am pretty sure that Fiennes came out in support of JKR.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 02/10/2025 12:29

100%correct, @NeonFish!

@JNicholson - I do not like male born individuals thinking they have the right to be in spaces where women and girls are undressing, or to get naked in front of those women and girls. I don’t like male born rapists identifying as women and getting locked in prison cells with women, and then going on to attack them. I don’t like male born individuals, who have been through male puberty with all the physical advantages that gives them, colonising women’s sports and basically cheating their way to victory. I don’t like children being given binders and puberty blockers, making them life long dependants on medicine and surgery. I don’t like women’s words being erased and replaced with cervix-haver, uterus-haver, chest-feeder - by people who the tell us WE are obsessed with people’s organs/genitals. I don’t like the things women have fought for being stolen by men. I don’t like violent men threatening women with rape, assault and death simply for stating that human beings cannot change sex.

NeonFish · 02/10/2025 11:32

NeonFish · 02/10/2025 10:24

Yeah I mean this is the underlying point isn’t it, you don’t like trans people and you’d like to confine their existence to as small a period of history as possible. Denying people a history is a very effective tool of oppression, so well done there.

No that's not the point. We don't like misogynists erasing womens history and identity the way you do. You don't feminists. We get it. Denying our history and our sex-based oppression is a tool of the misogynist bigot, just as claiming the oppressed is now the oppressor.

*You don't like feminists, that should read.

NeonFish · 02/10/2025 10:24

JNicholson · 01/10/2025 23:10

We’re going round in circles. Yes, neither Rosalind or Viola say ‘I’m going to dress as a boy because I feel male’. You could argue that’s because they don’t feel male. You could also argue that’s because they were living in a time when saying ‘I feel male’ would have been socially unacceptable and they needed to come up with other reasons. Neither explanation is ultimately provable, because they’re not real people.

Perhaps, perhaps not. But they weren't, however they saw themselves. And the culture at the time certainly wouldn't have encouraged them in the delusion.

Yeah I mean this is the underlying point isn’t it, you don’t like trans people and you’d like to confine their existence to as small a period of history as possible. Denying people a history is a very effective tool of oppression, so well done there.

I’m logging off now. Night!

Yeah I mean this is the underlying point isn’t it, you don’t like trans people and you’d like to confine their existence to as small a period of history as possible. Denying people a history is a very effective tool of oppression, so well done there.

No that's not the point. We don't like misogynists erasing womens history and identity the way you do. You don't feminists. We get it. Denying our history and our sex-based oppression is a tool of the misogynist bigot, just as claiming the oppressed is now the oppressor.

worksineducation · 02/10/2025 09:30

NeonFish · 02/10/2025 09:05

Lol that reads like a porn fantasy of a man who can't get women to date him so overcompensates by trying to convince us that 'no, really, tonnes of men do want to date us! Honestly! Seriously! For real!'

All lies. I would not believe one single word that came out of his mouth. It's all fantasy and wishful thinking. Just like those reddit posts where a 'MTF' transwoman says a woman in the ladies asked him for a tampon. It's just all porn-soaked fantasy.

Exactly.

A lot of these men see "woman" as nothing more than a label on which to project their personal porn soaked fantasy. Clear as day that they don't see actual women as fully human.

NeonFish · 02/10/2025 09:28

JNicholson · 01/10/2025 21:40

Yes, but Shakespeare's female roles were played by men because women literally weren't allowed to act.
And the female characters dress up as men in furtherance of plot points because women wouldn't have been allowed to do the things they needed to do to keep the story moving.

Sure, but you can argue this the other way as well: trans identities weren’t acceptable in Shakespeare’s time, so it’s much easier to tell people you’re dressing as a boy to mourn your dead brother or have a job or go into the woods for a while and that you’ll stop doing it at the end of the play, rather than saying you want to dress as a boy because you feel male.

Lady Macbeth seems to have managed to keep the story moving without dressing up as a boy, so it’s not a catch-all explanation.

Transgender actually didn't even exist back then. Crossdressers/transvestites perhaps, but not transgender. You can't have something be acceptable or unacceptable if it actually doesn't even exist. Can't have something from nothing/nothing from nothing.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/10/2025 09:27

NeonFish · 02/10/2025 09:18

Your post is completely delusional.

First of all, Shakespeare actors had males playing female roles because FEMALES WEREN'T ALLOWED TO ACT back then. Acting was seen as a man's job. Women were barred from working, even in acting. There was no choice but to have males playing female characters. So you have absolutely no point.

Secondly, Tom Felton has been dragged to hell and back and to hell again for defending JKR. Which proves the point. That it's not fashionable to defend JKR or womens rights.

And he didn't even make any statement about trans issues. He expressly avoided it.

He basically said, "I don't really have an opinion about trans issues, it's not my place to say. But I'm not going to be mean about JKR because I wouldn't be where I am today without her."

Even that is enough for him to be vilified.

Nothing less than pledging allegiance to the cause is enough for these people.

NeonFish · 02/10/2025 09:23

teawamutu · 01/10/2025 21:13

"Re your second point: saying ‘you can’t put a trans character in Shakespeare’ is mildly hilarious, given that all his female roles would have been played by boy actors in his own time and several of his comedies feature female characters who spend most of the play dressed as men."

Yes, but Shakespeare's female roles were played by men because women literally weren't allowed to act.

And the female characters dress up as men in furtherance of plot points because women wouldn't have been allowed to do the things they needed to do to keep the story moving.

Far from proving gender fluidity, it's a stark example of biological realism. They knew fine well who the males and who the females were.

Ah, I should have read through to the end of the thread before replying, you made the point already about the Shakespeare era.

NeonFish · 02/10/2025 09:18

JNicholson · 01/10/2025 21:01

jumping on that bandwagon to denounce JK Rowling and her awful transphobic views… has been and still is the only acceptable viewpoint in Hollywood.

This is provably untrue.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2022/oct/25/ralph-fiennes-defends-jk-rowling

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2022/nov/28/helena-bonham-carter-defends-jk-rowling-and-johnny-depp

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2025/jun/09/harry-potter-tom-felton-supports-jk-rowling-trans-controversy

Re your second point: saying ‘you can’t put a trans character in Shakespeare’ is mildly hilarious, given that all his female roles would have been played by boy actors in his own time and several of his comedies feature female characters who spend most of the play dressed as men. Beyond that I’m not sure what we’re arguing about. I’ve already said I wouldn’t expect a large number of roles to be trans. My point was about Hollywood’s history of representations that significantly stigmatise trans people. You’ve said you think their inclusion is only lip service, so maybe we’re in agreement there. Though I’d suggest the success of a show like ‘Euphoria’, which has a trans actor Hunter Schafer as the love interest, implies the future of trans representation doesn’t have to be as negative as you’re arguing.

In general I think you’ve gone off on several tangents that don’t really have anything to do with my original point. Which was that it’s not convincing to claim that ‘all of Hollywood’ or ‘all of the media’ have until recently been captured by gender ideology (to use the GC framing). I think people who want to make arguments like that have got enough examples of actual capture that they could use, e.g. Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP. ‘All of Hollywood’ and ‘all of the media’ doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

Your post is completely delusional.

First of all, Shakespeare actors had males playing female roles because FEMALES WEREN'T ALLOWED TO ACT back then. Acting was seen as a man's job. Women were barred from working, even in acting. There was no choice but to have males playing female characters. So you have absolutely no point.

Secondly, Tom Felton has been dragged to hell and back and to hell again for defending JKR. Which proves the point. That it's not fashionable to defend JKR or womens rights.

NeonFish · 02/10/2025 09:05

CleopatraSelene · 01/10/2025 20:32

Aha, LaverneCox claims many actors are secretly dating transwomen. Not sure if I believe...

https://www.out.com/television/2022/11/18/laverne-cox-spills-tea-famous-men-who-secretly-date-trans-women

Lol that reads like a porn fantasy of a man who can't get women to date him so overcompensates by trying to convince us that 'no, really, tonnes of men do want to date us! Honestly! Seriously! For real!'

All lies. I would not believe one single word that came out of his mouth. It's all fantasy and wishful thinking. Just like those reddit posts where a 'MTF' transwoman says a woman in the ladies asked him for a tampon. It's just all porn-soaked fantasy.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/10/2025 08:58

worksineducation · 01/10/2025 16:02

I've been watching the Goblet of Fire.

At the end Dumbledore says 'soon we must all face the choice between what is right or what is easy' this is a change from the book where JK wrote 'Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory. "

But ultimately Emma and Dan chose what was easy. Not only that, they chose what was easy for them even though they knew that doing so would harm other people they must obviously think of as lesser. The victims of Katie Dolatowski, Karen White, Barbie Kardashian and the list goes on.

It's bizarre to me that they could act in those movies where the central theme is someone standing up and doing what is right against evil and protecting the vulnerable despite the awful difficulties for them personally in doing so and going against what is trendy and fashionable and in the news (the Daily Prophet's smear campaign against Harry and distortion of truth rings some bells) and wonder that JKR has taken the stance that she has. They must be very, very dim not to get it.

Men have 160% the punch power of women, even if they identify as trans. I hope Barbie Kardashian's mother is in hiding.

Great post.

Let's also not forget Dumbledore to Neville Longbottom in Philosopher's Stone:

“It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends.”

Emma Watson and Dan Radcliffe lacked the courage to stand up to their shiny, glittery friends in Hollywood.

dottiehens · 02/10/2025 08:55

Emma Watson is trying hard to keep herself a bit relevant. It is not super deep. She supports the trans rights in order not be cancelled. Now why do we listen to a has been and an hypocrite?

NeonFish · 02/10/2025 08:48

JNicholson · 01/10/2025 19:25

You’re missing my point, it’s not about expecting large numbers, it’s about Hollywood actors not being open about trans partners when they are dating them, and a long history of trans people being portrayed as killers/evil/laughingstocks/freaks on the rare occasions when they did feature in mainstream movies. Yes there have been a few more positive portrayals recently, but to say ‘all of Hollywood has been genderist until recently’ implies a cultural memory of about five minutes.

They might not be dating trans people but then again, trans activists seldom do, hence the term 'pro-trans on the street but not in the (bed) sheets'. In practice, no one really does. So Hollywood is no different there from general life. But, what almost all of them now have, are trans children. Who was that actress, I can't remember which, it could have been Jamie Lee Curtis or Cynthia Nixon - anyway, who said their both or all their children are trans, their best friend is trans, and another best friend has a child who is trans, etc. That is not statistically normal in real life.

NeonFish · 02/10/2025 08:39

JNicholson · 01/10/2025 16:28

You’ve got no idea, really, whether it was easy for them to make those statements or not. You don’t know whether there are people in their private life who disagreed and cut them off for it. We do know that JKR did (which is her prerogative), and it has certainly done them no favours with the right wing press or with posters here.

You've got things completely backwards.

GCs don't cut off people for supporting trans rights. I have never, ever, ever, ever heard of that happening. We all hope our relative/friend will see common sense eventually. It is the trans activists that cut off GCs, because nothing less than 100% complete agreement is acceptable to them.
Likewise, the trio are the ones who cut JKR off. She didn't cut them off.

NeonFish · 02/10/2025 08:31

worksineducation · 01/10/2025 16:02

I've been watching the Goblet of Fire.

At the end Dumbledore says 'soon we must all face the choice between what is right or what is easy' this is a change from the book where JK wrote 'Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory. "

But ultimately Emma and Dan chose what was easy. Not only that, they chose what was easy for them even though they knew that doing so would harm other people they must obviously think of as lesser. The victims of Katie Dolatowski, Karen White, Barbie Kardashian and the list goes on.

It's bizarre to me that they could act in those movies where the central theme is someone standing up and doing what is right against evil and protecting the vulnerable despite the awful difficulties for them personally in doing so and going against what is trendy and fashionable and in the news (the Daily Prophet's smear campaign against Harry and distortion of truth rings some bells) and wonder that JKR has taken the stance that she has. They must be very, very dim not to get it.

Men have 160% the punch power of women, even if they identify as trans. I hope Barbie Kardashian's mother is in hiding.

But ultimately Emma and Dan chose what was easy. Not only that, they chose what was easy for them even though they knew that doing so would harm other people they must obviously think of as lesser. The victims of Katie Dolatowski, Karen White, Barbie Kardashian and the list goes on.
It's bizarre to me that they could act in those movies where the central theme is someone standing up and doing what is right against evil and protecting the vulnerable despite the awful difficulties for them personally in doing so and going against what is trendy and fashionable and in the news

Fucking A!!!

Got Talent Yes GIF by TV4
NeonFish · 02/10/2025 08:25

WeeGeeBored · 01/10/2025 14:59

This is a very mean post. You and I know absolutely nothing about Emma Watson's private life - if she has godchildren or nieces and nephews, is loved by her family. The description of her being a "lonely spinster" is vile and demeaning to all single women as though the crowning achievement for women is to have a man and a child.

As for JK having one old school friend at her 60th. I am in touch with many old school friends including some from when I was under 10, but what does that tell you about me? Absolutely nothing.

To compare young Emma Watson with JKR is so awful and I am sure that JKR herself would abhor that (surely?).

And imagining that she went back to school saying look at Meeeee! Even if she did do that as a youngster I would give her a pass on that because of the strange things that stardom does to the minds of the young (I knew a very "nice" girl from school who was a child star who became a drug addict).

Also, many many people can lay claim to having made EW wealthy - the person who cast her in the films, the scriptwriter on the film, the director on the film, the film production companies, her agent, her PR person. Yes, the films are based on JKR's books, but films are collaborations. For JKR to take all credit for them is arrogant beyond belief. In fact, the films added to her wealth and boosted sales. she will never want for money for the rest of her life. She should be grateful for that.

Also, many many people can lay claim to having made EW wealthy - the person who cast her in the films, the scriptwriter on the film, the director on the film, the film production companies, her agent, her PR person. Yes, the films are based on JKR's books, but films are collaborations. For JKR to take all credit for them is arrogant beyond belief. In fact, the films added to her wealth and boosted sales. she will never want for money for the rest of her life. She should be grateful for that.

Without JKR writing the books, there would be no films. Claiming JKR taking all the credit for HER CREATION is arrogant makes no sense, and it what is truly mean. If you created something solely yourself, damn right you have the right to claim all credit. Saying it's arrogant is batshit crazy. And JKR has always said how grateful and how lucky she is with her financial position. She's never said otherwise. It looks to me like you are trying to shame a woman from getting herself out of poverty and being successful, which is mean and misogynistic. Maybe you're simply jealous of her and that is causing your resentment.

teawamutu · 02/10/2025 08:20

JNicholson · 01/10/2025 23:10

We’re going round in circles. Yes, neither Rosalind or Viola say ‘I’m going to dress as a boy because I feel male’. You could argue that’s because they don’t feel male. You could also argue that’s because they were living in a time when saying ‘I feel male’ would have been socially unacceptable and they needed to come up with other reasons. Neither explanation is ultimately provable, because they’re not real people.

Perhaps, perhaps not. But they weren't, however they saw themselves. And the culture at the time certainly wouldn't have encouraged them in the delusion.

Yeah I mean this is the underlying point isn’t it, you don’t like trans people and you’d like to confine their existence to as small a period of history as possible. Denying people a history is a very effective tool of oppression, so well done there.

I’m logging off now. Night!

You seem to default to allegations that posters just don't like trans people whenever there's a point you don't like but can't answer.

Humans have never been able to change sex and never will. We agree - look at my posts if you don't believe me - that people who wish they were the opposite sex, or believe they are for whatever reason including illness, have probably always existed.

My point was that at no point before living memory would society have treated this as anything other than an illness or someone making a choice for practical reasons.

Not accepting someone's made up version of history doesn't mean I dislike them, it means I like proof.

I'm very fond of JRR Tolkien and I love his wistfulness for the lack of Norseness in our culture, but I'm not going to start pretending to believe in elves to show my support and I'm not going to rewrite Shakespeare to add in concepts that didn't exist at the time when he already provided a perfectly good motivation in the story. He's rather better at it than both of us, after all.

nutmeg7 · 02/10/2025 07:05

JNicholson · 01/10/2025 22:21

It’s on record that they were first published in 1609 and ‘Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day’ was in the grouping of poems addressed to a fair youth. It’s on record that Shakespeare died in 1616, so he had seven years to complain about that publisher’s ordering if he wasn’t happy with it.

Just reading this thread - what does this have to do with ‘trans’ representation? It could suggest that Shakespeare was gay or bi, or was skilled enough as a writer to be able to write sonnets from the perspective of another person. Like writers do all the time.

KTheGrey · 01/10/2025 23:49

JNicholson · 01/10/2025 22:52

‘suggesting he cursed the publishers’ (apparently for reasons not specified?) doesn’t sound like it proves much either.

Bringing us back to where I started - there’s almost nothing solidly documented and everything about the sonnets is still subject to debate.

Oh and the cursing was to do with the fact of it being published, the academic writing the article believed they were trying to assuage his anger at it being published at all. Not proven and frankly flimsy so fits right in.

SionnachRuadh · 01/10/2025 23:30

It only works if you can see with your own eyes that this is a woman pretending to be a man and suspend your own disbelief that the other characters in the play couldn't see it too.

Julie Andrews in Victor/Victoria works because she's a woman pretending to be a female impersonator, so her femaleness confuses the straight men who find her attractive while being primed to think of her as a man.

I can't see a trans actor playing that role. I think you would need to have a biological female.

The other case I think of is Cathy Moriarty in Soapdish, which I know is thoroughly cancelled now because of the trans villain trope, and I don't think would pass muster on FWR either because you've got a biological woman playing a transwoman and nobody clocks her. But I actually think Moriarty's performance is a minor bit of genius - she's a tall woman with a raspy voice, but she's got obviously female features and proportions, but in the way she plays it there's something about her mannerisms that's just a little off, and her love interest Robert Downey Jr can't quite figure out what's off about her.

But that again proves the point of how difficult it is to have a trans character where their transness isn't central, and it's a role that I can't imagine being played by a MtF transitioner because it relies on them passing almost perfectly.