Is it safety or separation?

The movement from one state to another is socially living as the opposite gender by making changes to one's body & social status.

Lets break this down

socially living as the opposite gender

A meaningless phrase. How does one live 'as a woman'?

making changes to one's body

Changes, but none that actually brings anyone closer to being female. The end result is a changed male

social status.

Doesn't happen

So a complete non definition

That is superficial change... only at the level of social presentation and private psychological imagination. You cannot change the 'substance'. You cannot change your sex ( the hard drive). Nothing at the more superficial level is permanent or fixed. It is fluid and changes with time and experience. If you are trying to fix 'femininity' in place it will end up being nothing but an exaggerated performance like a set of clothes you put on each morning to achieve a particular impression of whatever is is you want to project that day. The clothes are nothing but a costume one wears to signal one's role or character in the social system or order.

.

Indeed.

That was the informative nugget I found when reading the post from yesterday morning. I think most of us just skipped reading the post the first time around.

But it is indeed abusive to women.

Women, you cannot ever meet up without including male people because if you do, male people will treat you badly! And if you even think of it, you are ‘separatists’ and you need to be ashamed.

Our treasure chest of gems are overflowing with these latest threads.

Just adding to my post.

Is it exposure to this board then that has meant you, personally, learned how to behave with respect in a space that is in the vast majority used by women?

Is that what changed how you interact so dramatically? Are you telling us that you are living proof of what contact with women achieves in improving someone’s behaviour? Or was it the punishment of deletions?

I think I need to repeat this post.

AGAIN.

Lots of women also seek the company of men because they like men and get on better with men in certain ways. I also post on another specialist interest forum which is 99% male and have done for many years, as an example. I have male friends in 'real life' too. My gay male friends are often like a 'half way house' between my male and female friends in that some of our shared styles and approach to communication is similar as with female friends.......but

My longest standing female friends are those who I met when our children were babies, and we were brought together because of these shared circumstances. A combination of the commonality of life experience/perspectives and our shared substance ( being female) is what draws us to other women. Certainly for me.

Ultimately though, even with female friends we each have our own individual style and mode of communication, interest and friendship. Friendships can be built on all sorts of different foundations.

I don't think Howse realises we can spot an abusive male from the other side of the planet here.

We know what MRAs look and sound like.

We've had enough of them visiting MN to be able to recognise the pattern. They aren't new and they don't say anything original.

The TRAs who spout on about how we aren't feminist because we don't include male transwomen but sound EXACTLY like MRAs are a particular joy.

When you use the same tired tropes it's not exactly difficult.

If you really dont know of any decent men from whom you can learn basic standards of decent behaviour and how to interact with women, then just try to imagine that women are human beings with agency, life experience, and the same rights to self determination as men.

In plain sight !

At least the constant repetitive links, emojis and such has disappeared.

Ah, I see. Women used as training materials to help the poor confused men learn how not to be misogynist pricks. I didnt grasp that point.

Many men are quite capable of interacting with women without insulting them, or trying to lecture them.

Learn from them!

What is also pretty basic stuff is that people who have never met or seen someone who is of a different race or sexual orientation will still have respect for those people.

Your point has been to consider that women wanting single sex groups (not provisions needed for safeguarding including privacy and dignity) are or at risk of becoming a separatist movement. Your point is one that relies on absolutism and it is flawed because of that.

And additionally, your point being one based on absolutism then places the blame on female people for male people’s poor behaviour towards female people. This is not only victim blaming, it crosses over into the abuser’s code.

Ultimately, it is not the responsibility of female people to improve male people’s behaviour. And it is not the responsibility of female people to restrict their needs or their choices in the way you have tried to defend on this thread and others to make male people better people.

It is the responsibility of male people to act with respect and there are so many opportunities for male people and female people to interact everyday.

That some people are arguing on the internet that some female people having access to some single sex groups while still interacting with male people on a daily basis should not be allowed because male people wil not know how to behave respectfully is an absurd notion. So much so that it is an abusive notion.

Indeed I can. It's always interesting which posts hit the mark and which don't. I know I am very much far from being alone in my thoughts on this thread.

I have to say, resorting to calling MNers 'Karen' is the very definition of scrapping the barrel.

I don't think Howse realises how unintentionally hilarious he is. I'm howling at that one.

Nothing says "Hi, I'm a agiest, sexist, ignorant pig' more than calling us Karen's because he's run out of anything else to say that might be vaguely called an argument.

I can smell the desperation and the abject rage at not being able to think of anything coherent to respond to us all say "Er no, fuck off. Single sex means single sex not single sex plus invaders".

It is not 'authentic' for a man to pretend he's a woman or to expect others to recognise him as such, though. Being 'authentic, is simply feeling free to express what comes naturally. Personality and expression is not what defines someone as a man or a woman. The body and its biological function is what, ultimately, defines male or female.

Ah, another display of super femininity to liven up my breakfast ...

Sometimes we seek the company of women in order to have chats free of mansplaining and pointless willie-waving. At other times we're perfectly happy with male company. Yes, these are behavioural traits that are unevenly distributed between the sexes, to an extent that we notice it in our social lives. No, this has nothing to do with the single-sex exemptions outlined by the UK's Equality Act, which are to do with the impact of differing male/female biology on safety, fairness, dignity and privacy.

Hostility with an aftertaste of contempt.

And do you see again why your claim that psychological, behavioural & cultural commonalities is meaningless as a tool to categorise the sex class of a human.

You just pointed it out here. If the sex class of a human was dependent on a changeable aspect of a human depending on a particular point in time, it renders it a meaningless tool for the purpose.

Humans don’t change sex no matter how much you wish to believe that you can change sex. You can’t.

@Howseitgoin I’m just going to remind you and let everyone see that you said my violent rape and SA was my fault due to a lack of contact.

Attitudes like that show me exactly where the problem lies. And they will be clear to every other woman when I shine a light on you every time.

Sorry, what?

Are women a bit of a mystery to you? 😥

I'm guessing you haven't come across our frequent use of the phrase "to put one's head above the parapet", indicating our fear of speaking out - usually in contexts such as work.

BTW the "Karen" stereotype is not about being outspoken. It more commonly refers to a smug conformist.

I really wish mumsnet hq could see and make the connections understand how offensive it is to be told that my violent rape is my fault because of a lack of contact.

Lack of contact.

It’s the very definition of contact. Intimate and unwanted. And as a result of that contact he gave me genital herpes and hpv.

LACK. OF. CONTACT.

what the actual fuck.

Your answer is irrelevant to the point that MissScarlet was making.

That point being that your claim that psychological, behavioural & cultural commonalities are in any way meaningful as a categorisation tool for determining the sex class of humans.

Because a female person who commits atrocities and is mature is a woman regardless of what she does or says. And that female person has free access to female single sex provisions.

So what that Ted Bundy was a murderer and someone described him as a loving person. It didn’t make him less or more of a man or make him a woman. It was not relevant to the question being asked.

You just accused MissScarlet of making a false equivalence by making one yourself.

Isn’t this “&” from howse a teensy bit transphobic?

“The movement from one state to another is socially living as the opposite gender by making changes to one's body & social status.”

Do tell me how I was violently raped because of a “lack of contact”.

I can tell you his penis definitely went up my fanny and down my throat. And his hands were right on my throat until I passed out and pissed myself.

tell me how he did that without contact? Some sort of telekinesis?

Absolutely nothing 'bigoted' about saying men need to stay in men's spaces, as per the law. HTH.

It clearly frustrates the fuck out of Howse that unlike in real life where no doubt he'd be using his male physique - height, build, voice, mannerisms to intimidate women to do what he wants, on here he can't. We just keep saying no because his 'arguments' such as thry are are quite clearly incoherent nonsense and boil duan too "women should say yes because it makes me angry/sad when they say no"