Is it safety or separation?

And yet, single sex spaces are reported to be safer than mixed sex spaces (ie. those which are single cubicles but accessible to anyone).

I think that you are saying that since we cannot protect female people 100% with single sex spaces, that we shouldn't bother at all. And this is in light of all the media reports of unisex stalls being unsafe for women and girls.

By all means, you need to find your own personal solution to communal changing spaces. But those who want to use them, shouldn't lose the convenience because a small % of people need cubicles. There should certainly be a private cubicle provided within the communal spaces as well if it is possible.

It is not a reasonable expectation for organisations to remove communal single sex spaces and turn that space into cubicle only. Because by your very own rationale, a person is not safer in that cubicle. That has been your rationale all morning.

So, why are you now saying that we should accept a facility that is offering sub standard safety at all? That is my point. You have argued that nowhere is really safe, so why should we be campaigning to retain single sex spaces at all.

Your clarification has not clarified anything at all. I still don't really understand what your argument is.

I dont go to those places often

And that's why they should be okay in a single sexed space with individual cubicles, right? As I suggested

I said they were making up the things that they claimed I had said. Its like me saying that you said its OK to kill kittens and then writing a strongly worded rebuttal based on when my kitty was murdered. My cat may have been killed but it doesnt mean you said its okay to kill kittens. I'd be making that bit up.

With respect for your trauma - rules and guidelines around single sex facilities are not all about you as an individual...they are about females as an identifiable social grouping.

Then I suggest you check it out beforehand and ask the question. Where I go it’s a rule.

For the past year its been a formal thing. As I said I went somewhere in 2022 and was told that unless I really believe they were definitely taking pics or video (in which case they'd call the police who could check), then there isnt much they can do. I see some places have a strict rule, others "prefer" or "suggest".

I don’t “get naked” I have a poncho.

I have trauma around being in a space behind a locked door where there are people I don’t know on the outside of that door.

Well, it may well be understandable why you personally might want to use discrete individual facilities...but for the vast majority of women it is the presence of the opposite sex in spaces predicated upon the naked or sexed body and its biological functions that creates most discomfort and increases the risk of sexual predation. This is why we have such facilities and spaces in the first instance.

'Safeguarding 'aims to eliminate as much risk as practical and possible.

You accused a rape survivor of MAKING IT UP, for fucks sake..

But phones are banned in the communal areas.

I can't understand why anyone needs a communal space to get naked.

This!!!! We need to ensure we always use the term ‘single sex’ rather than ‘safe’. The conflation of the terms has been another deliberate attempt to undermine women’s rights.

It's staggering your lack of ability to imagine that someone else might have a different experience or opinion to you.

Are you not aware that being in a closed cubicle can be problematic for some people? Taztoy has already explained why it is triggering for her, and unfortunately she will not be alone in this.

Which is why both cubicles and communal areas are a valid offering.

No one's forcing you to change in a communal space.

This narrative is appearing a lot.

As if women have to convince anti-women activists who do not value women's freedoms or rights or wishes if they present inconvenient boundaries to their being used by men. As if women have to plead their case that they are sufficiently proven unsafe before being granted the right to undress without a man present.

Women don't exist to gratify whatever need or feeling a man may tell them is going on in his head at the time. They are not a resource for men to use. What the man feels or how real his feelings may be to him make no difference to this. Men want to be in women's spaces through deep inner feelings? Well women have deep inner feelings that those men can go and express their inner selves outside of women's single sex spaces.

The whole 'well I don't mind' schtik? Lovely. Go enjoy yourself in the gender neutral and mixed sex spaces and I wish you all a lovely time. No one is stopping you. This works for all. Except men who want access to non consenting women in a state of undress and the answer to them isn't aww bless and middle ground, it's No, what is the matter with you?

And the other insideous one: that if women try to explain their reasons for not wanting to be used by a man in a female only space she should 'get counselling' - what is this idea that a woman not serving a man has some duty to fix herself for him? What are you smoking for pete's sake?

If you want women to get counselling so they will undress to gratify which ever part of a man will be gratified by her presence for him to use? I'd suggest starting with counselling for the man to a) cope with his physical reality b) to cope with the idea of other people having boundaries and rights too and c) to deal with his misogyny and narcissm.

And all of this is irrelevant anyway. The law in the UK is that womens single sex spaces are not available to be used by any man. End of.

Be much easier to see someone doing that then someone just holding their phone or appearing to be on a call.

Your question doesn’t make sense in terms of UK toilet regulations and legislation. If the toilet is mixed sex design, it has to be self contained and completely private. It’s supposed to be single use, separate from everyone at point of use.

In terms of safety, this is not the safest design. At a club a woman had choked on her own vomit and was on the floor on her cubicle. My friends and I saw her immediately when we entered the ladies as her blue hand was visible from the floor to door gap. We got over the door, opened it from the inside (made more tricky as her body was in the way) pulled her out, and got the vomit out of her mouth and whacked her on the back til she started breathing again. In a mixed sex design I really don’t think she would have survived. She wasn’t fully conscious when the paramedics took her away but she was choking up sick on her own and it was obvious from the smell she’d had too much too drink.

The above situation could be drugs, a mental health crisis, a heart attack, stroke, hypo, seizure etc etc.

Its the fact that you, as an individual, are visually and audibly separate from everyone else who could help you that makes it so unsafe in a mixed sex toilet.

Also in terms of safety comes health. You can catch viruses and bacteria from dirty surfaces and air. Mixed sex toilets have the greatest number of pathogens.

I haven’t even mentioned assaults (as other posters are covering this) but mixed sex cubicles are less safe too due their private design. Women scan the environment more than men. It is useful to have an idea of who will be outside the cubicle too which can’t happen in mixed sex toilets.

The safest toilets are those that are single sex with a single sex area in front so the cubicles can have door gaps for health and safety.

If you come back OP, I would be interested to know your thoughts on toilet design regarding safety and separation.

But for safety reasons there have to be spaces under the door. And over the top. So anyone could put a phone up or under and record.

What empathy and patience? Lol I've been.acxused of being a man for fucks sake..

@LoftyRobin have you gone meta and in order to prove your point that women are the problem, you've become that nasty bully of a woman in a safe womens space?

No because youd be in yor own cubicle alone. Not in a communal area where people could furtively take pics of you

I would add, to balance my above and briefly take Lofty‘s‘s posts in good faith - I really do try to in all cases - how sorry I am that they, Taztoy’s and all others have experienced what they have. Lofty, I hope you get the support you need. The world can indeed be a very frightening place, and every step we can take to make it less so, and to support those who are especially vulnerable, matters. One step we can take for the majority of women fearing men is single-sex spaces. I hope the empathy and patience many posters have shown you id a little reassuring at least, and can feel safer over time.

Yeah i do feel uncomfortable with pretty muvh everyone due to being a victim of child abuse and CSA specifically

Hang on, weren't women using mobiles to take naked photos of other woman a problem a few posts ago? Won't cubicles facilitate that? This poster is incoherent.