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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it safety or separation?

660 replies

OneFlakyMaker · 20/09/2025 05:54

When opposing transgender people in women's spaces, are you looking for safe spaces or separate spaces?

They may overlap but are not the same thing, and while a lot of the discussion is focused on safety, the tone and some arguments hint that addressing safety won't be enough for many people to feel comfortable. Instead, a place without males is sought.

I read one woman described it "At the club we used the women's bathroom to get a break from interacting with men".

OP posts:
Taztoy · 22/09/2025 11:09

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 11:09

Woah! Easy on the all caps….

Listen, you are making a categorical error here & assuming concepts are prescriptivist when they are in fact descriptive of reality. Psychological, behavioural & cultural commonalities aren't an opinion or ideology, they are a fact. Now you can claim that fact undermines women's rights but they are still are a fact. And in fact, this fact being acknowledged doesn't undermine women's rights because competing rights can be managed. IE we can accept commonality but still require measures to prevent harm as we have. The two are not mutually exclusive.

It’s still a no to men in women’s single sex spaces. And the law in UK.

Helleofabore · 22/09/2025 11:09

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/09/2025 11:01

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Well done Flirts!!

And you found the way to use different sizes too.

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 11:09

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/09/2025 10:59

You know what is also lying? Lying.

I have answered the question. Multiple times. Were there too many long words? Too much careful nuance?

I'll try again with bullets.

There are noticeable differences in behaviour at the population level between the group of male people and the group of female people

These overlap such that some male people have some behaviours culturally associated with female people and vice versa.

Some men want to change the definition of "woman" from simple sex to "people who share female associated commonalities of behaviour"

However, these "commonalities" as you call them are not a more meaningful way to think about "men" and "women" than simple body sex for several reasons:

Female biology still exists and has a material impact of women's lives

The social construction around the female body and how both men and women are socialised to think about ot react to it also has a material impact on women's lives.

The history of women's disempowerment and marginalisation is important for understanding women (original sex based meaning)'s social, economic, domestic and political position today.

Notably, the men who wish to define womanhood by behavioural "commonalities" rather than sex very notably feel it entirely proper that it is they, and not women ourselves, who get to define which "commonalities" are significant, often on an individual basis. Women's own experiences of womanhood and our opinions on whether we consider these "commonalities" to be the significant ones are neither sought nor considered relevant when given.

Therefore for women in particular, replacing social, cultural and political recognition of our sex under the word "woman" with a self identified "commonality" based on the intersection of (possibly) biological differences of behaviour and entirely culturally imposed ideas of "womanhood" is unacceptable because it takes out of our story the most significant causes of risk and disadvantage, and reifies cultural myths that disadvantage and disempower us.

Oh yeah, it's also problematic because it justifies letting men who want to perve on us insist we can naked with them.

Woah! Easy on the all caps….

Listen, you are making a categorical error here & assuming concepts are prescriptivist when they are in fact descriptive of reality. Psychological, behavioural & cultural commonalities aren't an opinion or ideology, they are a fact. Now you can claim that fact undermines women's rights but they are still are a fact. And in fact, this fact being acknowledged doesn't undermine women's rights because competing rights can be managed. IE we can accept commonality but still require measures to prevent harm as we have. The two are not mutually exclusive.

DustyWindowsills · 22/09/2025 11:08

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/09/2025 11:01

🤣🤣😂🤣😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂🤣🤣🤣

OMG AND I ACCIDENTALLY DISCOVERED HOW THE BIGLY LETTERS WORK ON THE BEST POSSIBLE POST FOR IT

😆😅🤣😂😂🤣😅😆😆😅😅🤣😂😂🤣😅

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FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/09/2025 11:07

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:38

I don't know them personally so how would I know?

But you do know Karen White is a rapist, yes?

So presumably you feel that being a rapist does not preclude one still having enough "commonalities" with the "average" woman to be a woman oneself?

Taztoy · 22/09/2025 11:06

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/09/2025 10:59

You know what is also lying? Lying.

I have answered the question. Multiple times. Were there too many long words? Too much careful nuance?

I'll try again with bullets.

There are noticeable differences in behaviour at the population level between the group of male people and the group of female people

These overlap such that some male people have some behaviours culturally associated with female people and vice versa.

Some men want to change the definition of "woman" from simple sex to "people who share female associated commonalities of behaviour"

However, these "commonalities" as you call them are not a more meaningful way to think about "men" and "women" than simple body sex for several reasons:

Female biology still exists and has a material impact of women's lives

The social construction around the female body and how both men and women are socialised to think about ot react to it also has a material impact on women's lives.

The history of women's disempowerment and marginalisation is important for understanding women (original sex based meaning)'s social, economic, domestic and political position today.

Notably, the men who wish to define womanhood by behavioural "commonalities" rather than sex very notably feel it entirely proper that it is they, and not women ourselves, who get to define which "commonalities" are significant, often on an individual basis. Women's own experiences of womanhood and our opinions on whether we consider these "commonalities" to be the significant ones are neither sought nor considered relevant when given.

Therefore for women in particular, replacing social, cultural and political recognition of our sex under the word "woman" with a self identified "commonality" based on the intersection of (possibly) biological differences of behaviour and entirely culturally imposed ideas of "womanhood" is unacceptable because it takes out of our story the most significant causes of risk and disadvantage, and reifies cultural myths that disadvantage and disempower us.

Oh yeah, it's also problematic because it justifies letting men who want to perve on us insist we can naked with them.

HOW DID TOU DO ALL THIS.

Beowulfa · 22/09/2025 11:05

Is "separatism" a new scoldy word to be used against all those unkind women who don't want to have to see cock in the changing rooms? Is it supposed to make us feel bad or something?

Taztoy · 22/09/2025 11:04

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:56

Look, they were definitely 'fishing' & fishing on MN for a reason as in taking the GC temperature on sepratism which is well studied social concern & not just for sex. I even suspect that facebook thread was by the same people because essentially its a question about the same topic. But big deal. Why not just say 'no, relax, that's not the purpose here' or 'what do you expect if sexual violence is so rampant' as i did instead of being so weirdly conspiratorially hostile.

Push back rationally for the sake of your own cause FFS!

Edited

Nice inference there in your last paragraph.

I see you.

AnSolas · 22/09/2025 11:02

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/09/2025 10:29

I'm not saying it's easy, but I would expect there to have been some progress on this over the last generation, and there really hasn't been.

I would have thought that whilst the position in relation to women's rights in the US remains as dire as it is, so called feminists should not have even the smallest amount of bandwidth left over to worry about cross dressing men and their preferred pronouns.

I also think that by fannying around focusing on these luxury beliefs which most ordinary people don't share, they are putting off millions of potential supporters, including women who would obviously like to have sex based rights but don't see what feminism (by which I mean American "feminism" as opposed to real feminism) has got to do with them or how it is relevant to their lives in any way.

If women started voting for a proper, pro women Democratic Party en masse, they would have much more political clout to effect these changes. But that party doesn't exist.

The TRA in the abortion roll back is a stark example.

The pro-abortion message was and is hijacked by the BS people who get pregnant. The people in the people who can get pregnant class were too busy defending their right to be classed as people who can get pregnant.

They failed to actually put forward a half assed argument as to why women in a society which can bankrupt a woman with the cost of medical care during pregnancy may need access to a medical provision to not be pregnant.

Or that women face a social and financial cost by growing babies that the "other" side of the abortion right issue is not willing to recognise or legislate for.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/09/2025 11:01

🤣🤣😂🤣😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂🤣🤣🤣

OMG AND I ACCIDENTALLY DISCOVERED HOW THE BIGLY LETTERS WORK ON THE BEST POSSIBLE POST FOR IT

😆😅🤣😂😂🤣😅😆😆😅😅🤣😂😂🤣😅

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 11:00

TheKeatingFive · 22/09/2025 10:49

What qualities do women have in common with trans identified men that they don't have in common with other men?

Well it stands to reason some male bodied individual outliers won't be like the average man in terms of behaviour, inclinations & interests but will with the average women.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/09/2025 10:59

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:30

So you won't answer the question. Its inconvenient isn't it?

Just remember, omission is as good as lying….

You know what is also lying? Lying.

I have answered the question. Multiple times. Were there too many long words? Too much careful nuance?

I'll try again with bullets.

There are noticeable differences in behaviour at the population level between the group of male people and the group of female people

These overlap such that some male people have some behaviours culturally associated with female people and vice versa.

Some men want to change the definition of "woman" from simple sex to "people who share female associated commonalities of behaviour"

However, these "commonalities" as you call them are not a more meaningful way to think about "men" and "women" than simple body sex for several reasons:

Female biology still exists and has a material impact of women's lives

The social construction around the female body and how both men and women are socialised to think about ot react to it also has a material impact on women's lives.

The history of women's disempowerment and marginalisation is important for understanding women (original sex based meaning)'s social, economic, domestic and political position today.

Notably, the men who wish to define womanhood by behavioural "commonalities" rather than sex very notably feel it entirely proper that it is they, and not women ourselves, who get to define which "commonalities" are significant, often on an individual basis. Women's own experiences of womanhood and our opinions on whether we consider these "commonalities" to be the significant ones are neither sought nor considered relevant when given.

Therefore for women in particular, replacing social, cultural and political recognition of our sex under the word "woman" with a self identified "commonality" based on the intersection of (possibly) biological differences of behaviour and entirely culturally imposed ideas of "womanhood" is unacceptable because it takes out of our story the most significant causes of risk and disadvantage, and reifies cultural myths that disadvantage and disempower us.

Oh yeah, it's also problematic because it justifies letting men who want to perve on us insist we can naked with them.

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2025 10:57

We've just got back to this question of 'what is a woman?' and 'how do we know that women are not transwomen?' haven't we?

"I identify as a transwoman and I demand all the rights and protections transwomen seem to claim. Therefore I get to shout transphobia at everything I don't like and everyone who disagrees with me. Anyone dissenting is hateful and I will report them to the police. If the police refuse to do anything I will threaten them with a judicial review."

"What do you mean, you can't be a transwoman? Why can't I be a transwoman? Transwomen are just like every other woman."

Well aren't they?

How can I define who is a transwoman and who is just a bog standard woman. We are whatever we say we are and I say I'm a transwoman and you can't do anything about that because...

...oh wait, the equality act has definitions which protect transwomen and stop me from doing this based on (checks notes) sex not gender identity.

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:56

Helleofabore · 22/09/2025 10:41

I think it became clear that the OP is not engaging rather than the posters did not engage with this thread.

I guess if you want to believe that the OP was genuine and was considering the answers, you can believe that. I don’t think a reasonable person would see it that way considering the only other response from the OP was a rather disjointed post that didn’t really show much understanding of the replies at all.

Look, they were definitely 'fishing' & fishing on MN for a reason as in taking the GC temperature on sepratism which is well studied social concern & not just for sex. I even suspect that facebook thread was by the same people because essentially its a question about the same topic. But big deal. Why not just say 'no, relax, that's not the purpose here' or 'what do you expect if sexual violence is so rampant' as i did instead of being so weirdly conspiratorially hostile.

Push back rationally for the sake of your own cause FFS!

Taztoy · 22/09/2025 10:53

Helleofabore · 22/09/2025 10:52

I am not quite up with this particular interaction. Has any further proof been offered about these supposed ‘commonalities’ of personality etc?

Or are we still grinding away with the same discussion where a male person can be considered female because of the way he behaves.

Yip feelings and behaviour.

nothing to do with the actual law.

Helleofabore · 22/09/2025 10:52

I am not quite up with this particular interaction. Has any further proof been offered about these supposed ‘commonalities’ of personality etc?

Or are we still grinding away with the same discussion where a male person can be considered female because of the way he behaves.

TheKeatingFive · 22/09/2025 10:49

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:45

They might have other qualities or characteristics that women on average have or they might be insane how would I know?

What qualities do women have in common with trans identified men that they don't have in common with other men?

Taztoy · 22/09/2025 10:47

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:43

Um, if it's a "lie" then existence is not legitimate….

But thanks for your opinion….

People who believe they have a feeling that they are the opposite sex exist.

The physical reality however is that they are not and never will be the opposite sex as defined in law.

They are a subset of their own sex, trans men or trans women.

They can present as the opposite sex if they wish, wear what they like, have whatever interests and hobbies they want, and their right to do that should be and is protected in law but they are not and never will be actually the opposite sex.

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2025 10:46

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:43

Um, if it's a "lie" then existence is not legitimate….

But thanks for your opinion….

Sex is not gender mate.

So when we are talking about single sex provision and gender reassignment, if you suggest that gender reassignment means you have changed your sex then yes you are a liar and it's a lie.

HTH.

Btw, this isn't my opinion nor MissScarletInTheBallroom's opinion.

It's observable and it's the law.

Sorry (not sorry). Try harder with your gotchas.

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:45

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/09/2025 10:40

They're male and they exhibit stereotypically male behaviours. Karen White has been convicted of a crime only men can commit. You can Google them both.

What do they have in common with women, please?

They might have other qualities or characteristics that women on average have or they might be insane how would I know?

Taztoy · 22/09/2025 10:44

I say no to men in women’s single sex spaces.

That no is supported by the law. The law says men are not allowed into women’s single sex spaces (in the U.K. where I am and where this website is based).

If the “no” in this case (the legal no as affirmed by the Supreme Court) is not respected, then all laws are under threat.

Why do some men have such a problem with the word no? Do they not understand the law on consent? Do they think my no in the case of my rape is also not worthy of respect?

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:43

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/09/2025 10:37

Trans people's existence is as legitimate as everyone else's.

Their claim to be the opposite sex is not. It's a lie.

Um, if it's a "lie" then existence is not legitimate….

But thanks for your opinion….

Justwrong68 · 22/09/2025 10:41

LoftyRobin · 20/09/2025 08:00

Why? Haven't women hurt you?

This old ruse? Women experience sexual harassment from men constantly, not from women

Helleofabore · 22/09/2025 10:41

I think it became clear that the OP is not engaging rather than the posters did not engage with this thread.

I guess if you want to believe that the OP was genuine and was considering the answers, you can believe that. I don’t think a reasonable person would see it that way considering the only other response from the OP was a rather disjointed post that didn’t really show much understanding of the replies at all.

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2025 10:41

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/09/2025 10:32

Nope. I have no commonality whatsoever with trans identifying men.

I have less commonality with them than I do with other men, in fact.

Yes I'm still scratching my head at this commonality argument.

Saying that males are females isn't remotely a common interest for my rights as a female on any level.

I'd like a proper explanation of why it's in my own interests to allow men access to women's spaces.

There is zero commonality.