By even considering these men have some kind of claim - 'you're conflicted - to things that obviously don't belong to them - you are prioritising them.

If you weren't, you'd simply conclude that men should stay out of women's spaces. 🤷‍♀️

what about this law makes it ok to break?

The fact that it is for the benefit of women and not men.

You keep saying 'prioritise men'. I've not said I wish to priorise men or even TW over women like Taztoy and myself. I've said that I'm conflicted on the subject much like I have been over the entire trans rights debate. I'm certainly not a TRA but neither strongly GC.

So please don't jump to assume my experiences or viewpoint. I wouldn't do so with you or anyone else.

The SC clarified the legal position. Which is. That those men should never have been allowed into women’s single sex spaces.

what about this law makes it ok to break? If we are breaking this law, does that mean the next one they’re going to come after is, say, drunk driving. Or murder. Or rape. Let’s just decide we don’t like those laws and stop obeying them. Sure that’s grand. It’s how I feel about it.

NO. And again for those at the back and the hard of hearing. NO. I SAY NO.

I SAY NO

Now. Please can you tell me why you’d override that no illegally? And then tell me if you see the comparison with my rape and how it isn’t a consent violation. Thank you.

If you've been raped, then I would be more surprised to see you prioritise men over what @Taztoy needs and is legally entitled to.

Just because people have their own issues shouldnt give them Carte Blanche to discount other people's rights. If your friends need third spaces to 'navigate' their world then they should be campaigning for them. And leaving women's rights alone.

If I remember rightly in t'old days when there were, compared with today, very few men 'transitioning' doctors (who were nearly all men) told transsexual men that part of proving their wish to be a woman included using women's spaces like toilets

of course no one at any point thought to ask women if they minded about this.....

I don't disagree with you nor agree with it, I never had a strong feeling about it in the past.

I am also a woman like Taztoy who has been raped and SA'd. Do you consider my conflict on this issue to me throwing myself under the bus also to prioritise men? Because I don't wish to prioritise men.

I accept my conflict probably comes from the grey area in how I view transsexuals. I just see them as transsexuals who need to navigate the way things already are, as opposed to changing the world for them.

I think that's where alot of my conflict is. The sense of entitlement now as opposed to just trying to quietly go un-noticed in society in general and navigating the world however they could.

I accept that generally I'm quite stuck in the past and have often tried to avoid media as much as possible but I see so much now I can't ignore.

It was still wrong though. It was still disrespectful to the women whose spaces were being used without their permission or consent.

Also, we CAN'T know the difference.

So either you decide to protect women like @Taztoy amd others like her. Or you decide to throw her under the bus to prioritise men. There isn't any nice compromise between the two positions here.

I think that's where alot of my conflict is. The sense of entitlement now as opposed to just trying to quietly go un-noticed in society in general and navigating the world however they could.

I accept that generally I'm quite stuck in the past and have often tried to avoid media as much as possible but I see so much now I can't ignore.

Trans women may have sneaked in quietly in the past but there were relatively few of them, they tried to "pass", they knew it was wrong. Compare with today - numbers have exploded, they don't always try to pass, and they have a huge sense of entitlement.

It's hard to know the difference and that's what leaves me really conflicted about trans women/or those that claim to be so now because I see alot things that are much worse to before and perhaps I missed a great deal!

I understand the need for them I do and I'm horrified that you've been through those things because I also have been through them myself. I'm not going to tell you to 'get on with it' about TW in our spaces or how you should feel about it, you feel how you feel about it.

I've read so many interpretations of all these things that my head is spinning on the SC ruling still and I suppose thats why I chose to come back again.

It's hard to know the difference and that's what leaves me really conflicted about trans women/or those that claim to be so now because I see alot things that are much worse to before and perhaps I missed a great deal!

I understand the need for them I do and I'm horrified that you've been through those things because I also have been through them myself. I'm not going to tell you to 'get on with it' about TW in our spaces or how you should feel about it, you feel how you feel about it.

I've read so many interpretations of all these things that my head is spinning on the SC ruling still and I suppose thats why I chose to come back again.

So how do I know the difference between your sorts of trans women?

I NEED single sex spaces. Because if male violence towards me - rape and SA.

Why can I not have what I’m LAWFULLY entitled to? What is it about this law that means it isn’t to be obeyed?

I knew a few transsexuals in the 80s/90s and I also have an adult child who transitioned (which is why i initially joined mumsnet in the past), I don't consider that you change sex but that you become either a trans woman or trans man so it's not the same as before but you haven't changed sex. I don't know exactly what it makes them except a transsexual. So that's what I think transitioning is, I'm not a doctor or a biologist so I don't know much more than that.

I don't think women should give up their spaces to men much like men shouldn't give up theirs to us. But I also don't know about excluding TW entirely from all spaces because I don't see them as men but I have of course seen all the bad things that come from their side and the pisstakers and creeps that have taken over and I think the ideology has overridden so many things so honestly I just don't know now. I find it hard to see everything in black and white but grey areas are hard to work around.

I knew a few transsexuals in the 80s/90s and I also have an adult child who transitioned (which is why i initially joined mumsnet in the past), I don't consider that you change sex but that you become either a trans woman or trans man so it's not the same as before but you haven't changed sex. I don't know exactly what it makes them except a transsexual. So that's what I think transitioning is, I'm not a doctor or a biologist so I don't know much more than that.

I don't think women should give up their spaces to men much like men shouldn't give up theirs to us. But I also don't know about excluding TW entirely from all spaces because I don't see them as men but I have of course seen all the bad things that come from their side and the pisstakers and creeps that have taken over and I think the ideology has overridden so many things so honestly I just don't know now. I find it hard to see everything in black and white but grey areas are hard to work around.

It doesn't. It's actually very simple.

There's no such thing as 'transitioning'. From what to what? Humans can't change sex.

On what grounds would women give up their single sex spaces for this one small group of men?

I don't know I feel about it all still, I got so burned out on the whole subject I had to leave mumsnet for a while but felt the compulsion to come back.

I go back and forth: yes I think single sex is important but I don't know if I feel like excluding medically transitioning people from them (i.e TW from female spaces and TM from males spaces) is correct because I don't believe most of them are doing any harm and it makes sense if that's the side they're transitioning to. But I also know there ARE some who are and out of safety/dignity I would prefer to keep them out.

I don't know if I think it's right or wrong for a trans woman to share a space with me, I don't have an issue with the odd trans woman using the same toilet as me as frankly as much as people seem to think they're multiplying like rabbits, it's rare I even notice anybody in a toilet I would even think might be trans but I also don't speak for everyone. And I think other spaces and areas are a bit more sensitive.

I don't know why it has to be so difficult.

I don't know I feel about it all still, I got so burned out on the whole subject I had to leave mumsnet for a while but felt the compulsion to come back.

I go back and forth: yes I think single sex is important but I don't know if I feel like excluding medically transitioning people from them (i.e TW from female spaces and TM from males spaces) is correct because I don't believe most of them are doing any harm and it makes sense if that's the side they're transitioning to. But I also know there ARE some who are and out of safety/dignity I would prefer to keep them out.

I don't know if I think it's right or wrong for a trans woman to share a space with me, I don't have an issue with the odd trans woman using the same toilet as me as frankly as much as people seem to think they're multiplying like rabbits, it's rare I even notice anybody in a toilet I would even think might be trans but I also don't speak for everyone. And I think other spaces and areas are a bit more sensitive.

I don't know why it has to be so difficult.