Men in women’s groups.

The old conservative trope of: if they see gays they will become gay? Or ''any behaviour I don't agree with was contagious'

The flaw with your logic is that it is self evident is within society tastes & preferences vary huuuugely'. They aren't uniform. As in some women prefer being stay home mothers, some full time working mothers, some both & some don't care for children. Some women prefer uber feminine presentation, some sporty, some conservative, some androgynous & some butch.

Of course I understand that. I constantly challenge myself and look at it from different perspectives.

I always come to the conclusion that sex is real and has material consequences for women both physically, and, because of patriacial social structures and norms, socially, financially, emotionally and politically.

And in that social environment, recognising the reality of sex and the social and physical consequences that it has for women (original female people) in particular and providing sex specific supports to help us mitigate this, and maintaining sex specific language to allow us to express and make sense of our experiennces while also challenging the beliefs that these gendered behaviours (in both sexes) are natural and can never be changed is the only fair thing to do.

I used to see trans women as great allies. I thought male people whose existence proved that much of what society says is "female" isn't specific to women at all, but just a convention attached to our sex.

The break for me was realising that these men didn't want "woman's" social conventions to be opened up to men as well, they wanted to keep the old social divisions between women and men and turn these into the actual defintiions of women and men, simulateously baking in the exact sexist stereotypes I had hoped they would be our alies in fighting and destroying the language, history, analysis, laws and spaces women need to make sense of what it is to be female outside those stereotypes and our socialisation.

I would love to get back to that possibility, but it cannot happen while trans women do not allow female people to exist in our right with our own language, spaces and protections that are separate from and nothing to do with trans women's social "womanhood".

Why is it so important to you to destroy this? Why do you hate female people so much that you cannot allow us our own existence in law, society and language?

What percentage though? Of the whole trans population

Totally agree, I think if you allow one biological male how can you say no to others

The number of trans people who are vocal about it (feeling entitled to invade women's spaces) is vast.

You don't know it's a vast number then, if you don't know whether or not less vocal trans people even exist. Anyway you sound very angry towards them, which I am not, hence you get worked up on this issue and I don't.

Absolutely.

I used to wear dresses, and skirts and elastic waist trousers.

since my rape I don’t.

I thought that was pretty clear in what I said?

I also didn’t used to be gender critical, but since my rape, my need for women’s single sex spaces has increased, and I am now very glad of the clarification of the law by the Supreme Court.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter, because I don't care what trans people do as long as they stay the fuck out of spaces which are for members of the opposite sex.

I judge the (vast number) of trans people who think they should somehow be an exception to the rules that the rest of society manages to follow, and that their perception of themselves should trump my sex based rights.

As for trans people who don't think that, well, I have no idea whether they exist or not because if they do, they aren't making themselves heard.

You don't wear dresses because of rape?

Well I think it's sad you would judge the whole population of trans people based on the actions of some more vocal trans people.

Except that they don't.

Not answering any of my questions @Howseitgoin and victim blaming people like me. It’s really not a great look.

I think that we all know the reason why Hows is so desperate to establish that females & transexual males both have a predilection to wear dresses.

Oddly he refuses to answer the question posed by @FlirtsWithRhinos "Forgive me for forgetting, but are you a person of natal female biology or a trans woman?"

@Howseitgoin

Are there interests influenced by genetics? I don’t think tribal loyalty is genetic.

If there are, so what?

There are probably specific hobbies full of people with autistic spectrum diagnoses, is that genetic influencing?

Why link their genetics and their hobby? If there was a group for neurodiverse people in a particular area or hobby, there would have to be a reason why they kept non autistic people out of their group, like it’s a supportive non-judgemental space, or to meet other people with neurodiversity within the field.

And you wouldn’t say, I like this hobby, but as a neurotypical person I don’t want to join the general admission hobby group, I want to join your neuro spicy hobby group and ruin it for you.

Yes but I am asking you about men who claim to identify as women and yet don't have any of those traits.

What makes them women? They're male people who look like male people and behave like male people.

I can see a difference between a man who wishes to be female, and then the rest of the male population. Just like most women don't wish to be male, i would say a woman who wishes to be male is different from the rest of the female population who wish to remain known as female.

No one is suggesting they can "change sex" rather that factually the sexes share personality traits.

They’re still men though.

The point being that male bodied outliers might have them & as such are more associated to the average woman than men in terms of behaviour .

My gender critical beliefs were born of my rape.

I’d say that’s pretty clear logic.

Care to give me your comment on that @Howseitgoin ?

How do you think the belief that humans can't change sex is socially manufactured, exactly?

Yes but then we will have to work in different buildings to men, use separate transport. I don't think it's practical to say because some men are dangerous we always have to be separate from them. But I agree if it involves being nude, undressing, using the toilet etc then yes keep things separate.

I am suggesting that people, women and men, all of us, are hugely influenced by the social norms we grow up with.

I think very few of our decisions and preferences are "our own". I do not believe that had we grown up in a vaccum, say, or in 15th Japan, we'd have the same beliefs about the word, the same values and preferences, or make the same decisions as we do having grown up here and now.

I actually find it staggeringly arrogant that anyone would not realise this.

Trans women are a subset of men.

Trans men are a subset of women.

What’s the issue with that? Each individual can dress / present / feel however they like. I couldn’t care less.

What they cannot do is use single sex spaces that don’t align with their actual sex.

And this is the legal position in the U.K. I appreciate some people find this upsetting but the answer to this is for them to campaign to change the law, not to unlawfully enter where they have no right to be, because that is a consent violation.

By your own logic, did you ever consider that your own gender critical beliefs may have been socially 'manufactured'?

See where this logic goes? Or are you exempt from it?