Men in women’s groups.

Well that's up to the group in question. I'm saying I would have no issue with a trans woman joining a women's group that I was a member of.

Everyone is different but why does that justify allowing the trans identifying man into the group but rejecting the other man?

Yes.

That doesn’t mean that you have been born in the wrong body.

Or are you trying to argue that being trans is the same as having a DSD?

How everyone is different. With different feelings. Different brains.

I might want to make male friends and so I might start going to football matches, joining a pub quiz team etc where men would be present and they would accept that women would be present too. What I wouldnt do is turn up at a men's shed type event, which is for men.

A trans woman who wants female friends has loads of options. But of course they want the whole world to accept they really are women and so that's why they want into the women only group. It's about affirmation

Because the body can sometimes go 'wrong'. Your brain can be made up the same as the next person but you could be born without 10 fingers or toes for example.

The brain and body are not separate. The brain is part of the body. Every experience you have ever had is an experience of your body.

The imagination is arguably separate. One can imagine what it's like to be the brain from a different type of body, or a different place or class or age or time.

But it's just imaginary. In reality it's got nothing to do with the reality of being born the other sex or a in different place or class or age or time.

It's all still based on the experiences and thoughts of the brain in the body you actually have.

It's so saddening and maddening that some people still can't just respect the fact that many women want single sex spaces. And by that I mean spaces that are only for adult human biological females. A trans woman being let into the group is no different to a man being let into a group. The only reason they can call themselves women is with the trans before it because they are actually men. How do some people not get that yet? Maybe there needs to be disclaimers on things that are supposed to be single sex spaces saying that if you own or have ever owned a penis you are not welcome here. I mean ffs it's so ridiculous that women aren't allowed to have all women groups without a fucking man, even if said man wears a dress, trying to make himself a part of it. Like how dare women presume they're allowed any fucking space without a penis in the vicinity 😡 sorry for the rant but just fuck off already all those men and also the women who support the be kind bullshit that got us here

But there is no possibility.

The only way these male people categorise themselves as ‘female’ is by their own sexist perceptions of what being female is. Or because they reject their materially objective sex for any reason. Their ‘feeling’ is not based on anything that doesn’t involve one of these points.

The only body someone can have is their own.

So, again, can you explain with a coherent and logically consistent explanation why you are prepared to make an allowance for ‘sex’ to be treated as ‘possible’.

But if the group is for females a trans identifying male has no business being permitted to join as they are indisputably not female.

But the non trans identifying male is at least interested in the subject matter of the group. Why should he be excluded?

Understanding of what?

Hi @Anchorage56 sorry if you feel you're getting lots of questions, but I have another one for you - do you see the brain and body as being different - if so how?

How do you know? If they think a trans woman is a woman, they'd surely assume a trans man was male.

You would need to ask a transwoman. But I can understand how you can feel you were born into the wrong body. I didnt realise my opinion was so important to so many people!

For me I can see it as a possibility. Whereas there is no possibility to be a potato. It is possible for a person to feel they were born into the wrong body. The brain and body being separate.

i can see the difference between men who want to be men and men who dont

They are still men though

men who like rugby and me. Who like football are different but still men

men who want to be nurses and men who want to be pilots -again just different types of men

maybes if women were not punished so much over their lives because of their biology it would not matter so much

Can you explain what in your view it is to feel female while being male?

So you understand there is inconsistency and incoherence to your own position. But you choose to make the exception. Why do you make the exception for sex?

Please don’t say because ‘you understand’. Please tell us why you choose to treat sex differently compared to any other aspect of identity that is not based on material reality about themselves.

Is it because you choose to be kind? Or is it because you are in a privileged position to not be concerned that a female only group will no longer be female only.

Why? What's special about sex?

What about nationality? If someone "feels" French should they be more welcome in a French expat group than someone who just enjoys French culture?

If someone "feels" like a librarian can they join CILIP when someone who just likes books can't?

men who feel they are female.

but what does it mean to 'feel female'?

what is this female feeling that all women (apparently) share?

Well that's the same as if someone identifies as a potato does that make them a potato. Of course it doesnt. But again I can see a difference with issues of sex

Of course a male person would join a female only group if they wanted to and was allowed. A man asked to join this group already and was rejected. There are many reasons why a male who did not have a transgender identity would want to join the female group.

But the OP says a man who identifies as a man did want to join the group and was refused. That's the point if the thread.

Do you mean understanding that the person ‘wishes’ to be something they are not? And that the person should be treated as they demand and not as they are in reality?