Men in women’s groups.

And who says this imaginary friendship group has more than 25 members! Honestly. I'm not talking about the law I'm talking about how I feel on the matter and how I view it. If I happen to be a member of a group with say 26 people then I'll follow whatever rules are in place, I'm simply saying I personally don't have an issue with it!

I’ve never expected your feelings to change and indeed have said that you are perfectly entitled to them.

but what you can’t do is have a single sex space for women and admit men. That is illegal.

It’s not about feelings for me - it’s about the law. And the law does not allow that.

You are absolutely entitled to feel how you want.

However, the law of the U.K. since the clarification by the Supreme Court says that single sex spaces means sex not gender.

Therefore, your group would have to admit all men (if they have more than 25 people).

If you’re ok with that then that’s fine but you can’t call it a women’s group when it isn’t that.

I don’t understand why people are so keen to break the law on this particular issue. For me it’s the law. It’s the same as every other law. It has to be obeyed. And if you, me, or whoever doesn’t like it, then the answer isn’t to break the law, it is to campaign to change it.

Yes that would be her reasons, not mine. I don't have to change my opinions of trans people or whether I would want them in a group I'm a member of because a stranger on the internet went through something horrible with a man. You can't throw that at me and expect my own feelings to change.

Can you rewrite that in English please?

Just catching up with this thread again now and yes thank you, I've said from the beginning this is my own thoughts and feelings on whether I would welcome a trans person into a group. I don't know why my feelings on the matter are discounted simply because that's not how everyone feels 🙃

@Howseitgoin can you please explain to me where I have made a “categorical error” in any of my statements?

The categorical error that's being made here is the assumption there isn't an organic inclination driving behaviours, Personality traits are influenced by genes & hormones where more often than not align with a particular sex…. but not always. There's this thing called biological variation where there are outliers.

It really depends on the individual group dynamics tho. The OP stated that they welcomed the trans person not the man so I assume they determined that she shared a commonality that was a good fit with women. Without knowing the details of the circumstances it's difficult to speak with certainty of what the distinguishing characteristics were. It would be interesting to know what exactly made the group comfortable with her tho.

As far as @Anchorage56 goes, I assume she was speaking for her own intuitions not others.

My experience with trans women is I don't feel threatened by them & able to connect with them on a different level that I do with men. I also have experience with very masculine & butch women who not only dislike the company of women but relate better to men. But as I said it's really an individual thing.

In which case the group isn't for you in the first place so your opinion could not be less relevant.

I actually don’t disagree with this. So if a group is set up around particular interests then it’s a bit lazy to just assume it’s only of interest to one sex

it is, however, also lazy to assume transwomen have a genuine shared interest in (knitting or whatever) because they feel like - well, whatever it is they think women feel like

Of course, if a single sex group is set up specifically to be single sex then it also recognises the rights of people to choose a single sex group, not because of a lack of interest from the other sex, but because of a whole range of reasons, including eg the opportunity to include women who are survivors of rape and sexual abuse, and allow them to feel safe.

Anchorage’s comment that some people think too deeply about this is illuminating. As ever, people who really haven’t considered the reasons for the group being single-sex in the first place, and don’t consider the consequences for other people, who happily through open the doors for transwomen (in this case) while ignoring the women who are quietly leaving at the back.

I really wish people would think this through rather than just go with their ‘feelings’ If anyone (Maddy, Anchorage?) has thought it through and can bring a decent argument, please do - I’d love to hear it

Good Lord.
Do you not see that some women, for reasons connected to their treatment by men, want spaces with no men? They are allowed in law to have them.

Your lack of compassion is astounding.

@Taztoy I am so sorry that you went through that, and continue to suffer.

@Howseitgoin
I don’t know, it sounds like someone getting a season ticket for Tottenham because they like wearing hats and scarfs, swearing and singing.

I’m an adherent of the reality of the law in the U.K. which says that single sex spaces means sex not gender.

Admit one man and you have to admit them all. Even if that man identifies as a woman.

please explain to me how that is “crankery”?

It is rather ironic that those who claim to be adherents of 'reality' are actually pathologically opposed to acknowledging it lest it interfere with their oversimplified ideological project.

The idea that women on average don't have anything in common with one another other than their 'lady bits' is preposterous. Women, just like men on average have distinctive interests, inclinations & behaviours. Case in point, women are substantially less likely to be violent hence the demand for private spaces not to mention is reflected in their work choices (predominantly caring professions/pursuits), private interests/hobbies & consumerist choices.

The idea that the content in conversations & discussions in an all mens group v an all women's group are exactly the same is laughable. Now, that's not to say on an individual basis that always applies but certainly on average there would be a difference that unless you have never had any social contact with either would comprehend.

Now given individuals vary on a psychological, cultural & behavioural level & thus aren't necessarily representative of average group dynamics it stands to obvious reason that they maybe a better fit to the group they aren't a 'biological' member of & to suggest otherwise is pure denialist crankery.

Surely if you're happy using mixed sex spaces yourself you can just go and do that? No one's stopping you. There's lots of them.

What is with the arguing with women who wish to have single sex spaces?

It's academic anyway, women don't have to convince you of anything. The law has confirmed protections for women. A number of posts in this thread demonstrate exactly why those legal protections are necessary.

Have a look into AGPs. Then come back here and say that there's not a problem.

Just don't do it while eating your lunch. 🤮

The reason [you claim] it doesn't make sense to you is because you [claim you] think this is what people are saying when it isn't.

Of course what people are actually saying is the opposite.

Women (original female version) don't have one way of thinking or one way of being. The only thing we have in common is being physically female at birth and every day of our lives and living with the physical and social consequences, good and bad, that that brings.

It is in fact genderist Neo-sexists like you who believe almost all "all card carry vagina holders to think exactly the same.".

You have to.

Trans "woman" cannot obtain the actual only thing that all women have in common, female biology and the experiences and challenges that arise from it.

Therefore trans women and those who support their claim to be women have to invent and project some imagined non-physical commonality on to women and say "it is this, and not your body, that really makes you women" to turn womanhood into something they can claim as well.

Because if you really believed both that women can have any kind of body and that women could have any type of mind and any type of personality, you'd have no use for the concept of "woman" at all because there would be no meaningful group of people to whom to apply it.

I realise of course that you as an individual already know all this. You just choose to pretend you don't so you can attack and undermine women with nasty jabs and childish emojiis. Your posting history is there for everyone to see and I advise anyone who thinks I'm being harsh to check it.

Nevertheless I reply in good faith anyway because while your arguments may be false and weak, mine are strong and worth making.

You are the one claiming TW are not normal. I want both men to be treated the same. Which of us is being discriminatory?

Oh I accept that you feel this way. I just think that you are wrong.

I believe that people who believe what you believe and act on those beliefs are damaging women's fragile social and political equality.

You are free to say what you think. I am free to say why I think you are misguided, point out logical or factual errors and highlight questions and consequences you have not considered.

'hatred'

Yeah, because women saying NO to men is 'hatred'. Fleeing when the questions get too tough and the cognitive dissonance cracks, and you have to actually think about what you are saying.

You are though.

It's literally impossible to believe trans people should be socially accepted as the opposite sex without condoning sexist assumptions about mental differences between men and women.

And that is why people are disagreeing so strongly with you.

But what if the trans woman is behaving in a bossy, intimidating manner like many men do? What if he is taking over, other women are leaving as a result? What if he makes innuendo comments on the Facebook page, posts pics of himself in fetish gear? Are you still ok with this? Basically, does behaviour ever come into it for you? Do you imagine the trans woman to be inherently a delightful creature, never a nasty, aggressive man who hates women? Not that i believe the "nice" woman should get in either of course.

Honestly what is wrong with people this morning. I'm not losing my Saturday morning to all this nonsense and hatred.

Please try and enjoy your weekend!

So a transwoman is not normal?!!!! Wow!!!!!!