Men in women’s groups.

And yet it seems to be very common behaviour among this particular group, doesn't it?

Where is the mass counter protest by respectful trans people saying, "Actually, no, we shouldn't be included in single sex spaces intended for the opposite sex and we don't endorse the views of the Stonewall screeches"?

You can't speak for all trans women. I'm sure there are plenty trans people just quietly going about their lives, the same as the majority of the rest of us. Laws get made without one person's sole input. You can't group all trans people together and say they all behave the same way.

And yet apparently trans identifying men are incapable of having a gender identity without expecting the world to revolve around it.

It's quite curious, isn't it?

Not expecting the world to revolve around your feelings seems to be a female trait, and expecting the world to revolve around your feelings appears to be a male trait. By imposing themselves on women only groups, trans identifying men are behaving in a stereotypically male way. They'd be acting more "female" if they simply joined a mixed sex group and behaved like a normal person.

And yet apparently trans identifying men are incapable of having a gender identity without expecting the world to revolve around it.

It's quite curious, isn't it?

Not expecting the world to revolve around your feelings seems to be a female trait, and expecting the world to revolve around your feelings appears to be a male trait. By imposing themselves on women only groups, trans identifying men are behaving in a stereotypically male way. They'd be acting more "female" if they simply joined a mixed sex group and behaved like a normal person.

No id act exactly the same, state my opinion but be happy to go with the majority or indeed the law. Not everyone with an opinion on something has to be disruptive and unreasonable and cause tension in a group. Some people are capable of having an opinion but not expecting the world to revolve around it. If i realised the values or outlook of the group I was a part of upset me then I could leave the group if I wished.

I’m not saying you’d be disruptive or unreasonable?

I don’t think I would be either - I’d just state my position which is as per the law and if the group admitted men and was still claiming to be a women’s only group I’d send a letter to the organisers and/or chair asking them to obey the law.

If they insisted it was a women’s group and was admitting men I’d ask them to change their title and constitution (if they have one) as they were acting illegally.

And I would leave the group.

It really depends on the individual group dynamics tho. The OP stated that they welcomed the trans person not the man so I assume they determined that she shared a commonality that was a good fit with women. Without knowing the details of the circumstances it's difficult to speak with certainty of what the distinguishing characteristics were. It would be interesting to know what exactly made the group comfortable with her tho.

As far as @Anchorage56 goes, I assume she was speaking for her own intuitions not others.

My experience with trans women is I don't feel threatened by them & able to connect with them on a different level that I do with men. I also have experience with very masculine & butch women who not only dislike the company of women but relate better to men. But as I said it's really an individual thing.

No id act exactly the same, state my opinion but be happy to go with the majority or indeed the law. Not everyone with an opinion on something has to be disruptive and unreasonable and cause tension in a group. Some people are capable of having an opinion but not expecting the world to revolve around it. If i realised the values or outlook of the group I was a part of upset me then I could leave the group if I wished.

And if there was more than 25 you’d either convert the group or ask the transwoman to leave?

I would go with what the majority wanted, but it wouldn't change my own personal opinion

And what would do if the majority said we don’t want men and a transwoman wanted to join? Or the group was over 25 and a transwoman wanted to join? (Assuming in both cases the group was based in the uk)

Well I would tell people in the group what my thoughts were on the matter and then the group would take whatever action it wanted based on the law or in the case of under 25 members based on the majority opinion.

So your group. If it had less than 25 members you’d admit a man? And then if it had more than 25 and still wanted to be a women’s group you’d ask the man to leave? Or you would convert the group to a both sexes welcome group?

Because the law doesn't apply to how I feel or think, only how I act.

Exactly. So why aren’t you applying the law in the same way to this situation? I genuinely don’t understand.

Yep, it's 'wrong think'…

But to be fair, I don't think a lot of these people have ever heard or been prepared to listen to a coherent explanation of why trans women & women have a shared associations. Given they have been saturated in oversimplified propaganda as well as many having been brutally victimised by men they are very resistant to at least really hearing 'the other side' they complain don't listen to them. Another problem is because some of their claims are legitimate they believe legitimising trans women will be a threat to them.

In what way am I forcing something? I'm simply talking about how I feel on the matter. I could think 20mph is too slow in a built up area, that would be my feelings on the matter, it doesn't mean I speed about at 40mph does it.

OK yeah they can accuse me of having the well used label on MN - internalised misogyny 🙄

I'll continue to use my own brain and not be bullied into something just because I'm female and therefore I must think the same way as the majority of females.

I’m looking at the question and asking

is the group clearly for those in the uk - yes/no

does it claim to be a women only group - yes/no

are there more than around about 25 women in the group - yes/no

The answers to those questions will determine whether or not a man can lawfully be admitted.

I don’t like thought experiments with vague questions because they’re pointless. It only makes sense to me to ask the right questions based on the scenario.

so if your group is in another jurisdiction, doesn’t say women only and has under 25 people, you’ll get a different answer.

so tell me - genuinely - is your group that you’re imagining

in the uk
more than 25 people
for women

and then I can answer. Because I can’t mind read (and I’m bad at inference because I’m autistic) so please tell me how you imagine your group to be

That’s what we are discussing?

i’m saying if it does then you cant admit a man without admitting all men. And in that circumstance I personally would chose to leave the group.

I don’t understand why you’re so keen to force men into a space where they are not legally allowed.

I am autistic. I obey the law (obsessively). And to me this is simple. And as clear as that.

Well that's where we are looking at OPs question through different eyes. I'm answering the question based on how I feel and my opinions, you are answering it simply on the current law. It's not really a question then is it. It's like saying- is murder illegal. Yes, end of discussion. This was more of an open question posed by the OP.

They are pushing you to admit something they suspect you believe.

To play devil's advocate, I suspect the prevailing suspicion from those most hostile to trans woman acceptance by women is that there's some underlying internalised misogyny driving it as in stereotypical feminine behaviour being associated with women. JK Rowling's famous line is 'woman is not a costume' comes to mind. But what they fail to understand is that what makes trans women associated more to women on a psychological level is the organic inclinations they share with women on average. For example, what makes them more like women is not because they 'wear dresses' but the inclination to do so that we share.

And who says this imaginary friendship group has more than 25 members! Honestly. I'm not talking about the law I'm talking about how I feel on the matter and how I view it. If I happen to be a member of a group with say 26 people then I'll follow whatever rules are in place, I'm simply saying I personally don't have an issue with it!

I’ve never expected your feelings to change and indeed have said that you are perfectly entitled to them.

but what you can’t do is have a single sex space for women and admit men. That is illegal.

It’s not about feelings for me - it’s about the law. And the law does not allow that.

Just catching up with this thread again now and yes thank you, I've said from the beginning this is my own thoughts and feelings on whether I would welcome a trans person into a group. I don't know why my feelings on the matter are discounted simply because that's not how everyone feels 🙃