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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Discussing gender issues in the office ‘unwise’, says judge

81 replies

Igneococcus · 19/09/2025 06:29

"It can be considered “injudicious” to express opinions about gender identity issues in casual office chats, employment judge Lesley Murphy said, adding that it was ill-advised because of how those views may be perceived by others."
But if it's "unwise" to talk about gender at work (and it might well be) doesn't that include claiming to be non-binary?

https://www.thetimes.com/article/0ad11f88-681b-4d3f-b612-c2620373f18d?shareToken=02e52f48d5b414b8e5514f1eedcf740b

Discussing gender issues in the office ‘unwise’, says judge

Workers warned against chatting about gender identity as tribunal ruled against non-binary worker in harassment case against charity boss

https://www.thetimes.com/article/0ad11f88-681b-4d3f-b612-c2620373f18d?shareToken=02e52f48d5b414b8e5514f1eedcf740b

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lcakethereforeIam · 24/09/2025 12:32

Just occurred to me the judges comments about discussing gender issues could be interpreted as applying to both sides. Perhaps HR/DIE can bear this in mind when organising training 🤔

MTCoffeePot · 19/09/2025 13:03

lcakethereforeIam · 19/09/2025 12:43

The comment didn't post @MTCoffeePot I'm agog. Don't leave me in suspense!

Fwiw, I thought the 'some' related to the list of 'facts'. Not necessarily to each 'fact'. Either way I don't know what point was being made or what it had to do with the post.

I don't think the claimant lost because they timed out. The judge pretty much called the claimant a liar.

For some reason the clip didn’t post. Here’s the text ( maybe it was too identifiable) I haven’t posted the case number.
17H AGO
Is this the same Natasha Saini (ADHD) who took an employer to court for Disability discrimination. EMPLOYMENT TRIBUNALS (SCOTLAND)

lcakethereforeIam · 19/09/2025 12:43

The comment didn't post @MTCoffeePot I'm agog. Don't leave me in suspense!

Fwiw, I thought the 'some' related to the list of 'facts'. Not necessarily to each 'fact'. Either way I don't know what point was being made or what it had to do with the post.

I don't think the claimant lost because they timed out. The judge pretty much called the claimant a liar.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/09/2025 10:30

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 19/09/2025 10:01

Cor some people do keep my scrolling thumb busy

on the article, this individual does very much seem like a ‘type’ don’t they? I’d posit that people who want to do fuck all and expect everything in the work place to be on their terms may be more likely to have some sort of ‘gender identity’

Broadly speaking, these are people who have not quite grasped the purpose of employment.

Namely:

  • At an individual level, you are exchanging your time and productivity for money, as per the terms of your employment contract. You are getting the benefit of being paid; that means you must give your employer the benefit of X hours' per day/week/month/year of productive labour. This means you should not behave in a way or spend work time on things which reduces the value of your labour or other people's labour to your employer.
  • At a societal level, we need most working age adults to be exchanging some sort of productive labour for payment, because this is what keeps the wheels on the economy turning. Without it we would have no goods, services or public infrastructure. This means that as many working age adults as possible need to be able and willing to work, which means that some of them may need special accommodations to facilitate their inclusion.

Things like maternity and paternity leave may cost the business money, but they open up the workforce to people who might otherwise not work, and facilitate the existence of the next generation. Providing a room for your staff to use for prayer and allowing some people to use it multiple times per day may cost the business money, but it facilitates the employment of people with strong religious beliefs, who have something to contribute to the business and to wider society. Accessible toilets and other accommodations for disabled people cost money, but allow disabled people to make a productive contribution instead of sitting at home on benefits when they don't need or want to do that.

So the basic rule is that being employed is about giving your employer maximum productivity in exchange for pay. The basic rule is qualified by the fact that sometimes a loss of productivity or an additional business expense is offset by the overall societal benefit of promoting the inclusion of certain groups of people.

But when it comes to gender identity, it's more difficult to make the case for that societal benefit.

A transgender person who doesn't make any particular demands beyond having preferred pronouns, who quietly uses unisex or accessible toilets without making a fuss, and who doesn't constantly talk about their gender identity or take offence at minor things such as "misgendering" and make everyone tread on eggshells, is most likely as productive as anyone else in the workplace. Even if they take a small amount of time away from the regular activities they are employed to do in order to, for example, sit on a DEI committee, that minor loss of productivity may be justified on the "wider societal benefit" grounds.

On the other hand, people who waste five to ten minutes at the start of every meeting asking everyone to state their pronouns, who take offence at even the most minor perceived "thought crime", who constantly accuse others of "transphobia" over minor issues, who disregard other people's rights to single sex toilets and changing rooms, who expose the business to legal risk by applying Stonewall law rather than the actual law, who stir up division and conflict and make the workplace a hostile environment for people who do not pretend to believe that humans can change sex... Well, these specific behaviours affect both their own and others' productivity, cause low morale, increase staff turnover and generally cause time and resources to be dedicated to dealing with gender issues rather than productive work. And during the rest of the time, when they are supposedly getting on with the actual fucking work they are paid to do, I think it can reasonably be inferred that they are not the best at that either.

Ultimately their actions are detrimental to their employers and to wider society, and particularly harmful to perfectly pleasant, hard working trans people who just want to turn up and do a good job. Because they are responsible for the growing "if I see a CV with pronouns on it I put it straight in the bin" attitude that we see more and more frequently.

It's not that all trans people and their allies are tedious time wasters who do nothing but cause division and conflict in a professional environment. It's just that enough of them are that employing them is now seen as a business risk.

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 19/09/2025 10:10

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 19/09/2025 10:01

Cor some people do keep my scrolling thumb busy

on the article, this individual does very much seem like a ‘type’ don’t they? I’d posit that people who want to do fuck all and expect everything in the work place to be on their terms may be more likely to have some sort of ‘gender identity’

And this was a workplace set up to help a group of very vulnerable people. But no, Natasha made it all about them her.

Helleofabore · 19/09/2025 10:09

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/09/2025 10:00

It remains to be seen whether he will actually "leave it there".

Do we expect the links to start appearing again, with all the emojis and such?

DontReinMeIn · 19/09/2025 10:08

I agree with @HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum. Unless you’re very, very comfortable with your colleagues it’s not wise to discuss politics, religion, money etc. at work.

Helleofabore · 19/09/2025 10:07

Shedmistress · 19/09/2025 09:37

Typical 'bait and swich'

a - bring some completely unrelated things to a thread
b - making those unrelated things false and arguable
c - spends all day derailing the thread arguing about the intricacies of the completely unrelated things.

I've had kids in my 'unable to attend regular school' classes who tried to do this all day long. It was tiresome then, and it is tiresome now.

But that's the point, it is designed to try and tire everyone out or to exasperate someone so badly that they say 'Oh, just fuck off' and then they are the one that gets banned.

Indeed.

It was a way to attempt to falsely legitimise the ‘Gender critical people are transphobic = fact’. I suspect that was the real reason. To be able to do say this without being deleted.

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 19/09/2025 10:07

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/09/2025 08:39

Your meaning here was not clear and I suspect this was your intention all along.

Now, what is the phrase "some Mexicans are rapists" supposed to tell us? You could replace the word "Mexicans" with any nationality in the world and it would still be true, so how is this a relevant thing to say?

You could replace "Arabs" with most other ethnicities and it would still be true.

You could replace "gay people" with straight people and it would still be true.

As for "black people commit more crimes", this sentence is a comparator so adding "some" makes an already unsubstantiated claim even less clear. "Black people commit more crimes" is an incomplete sentence which needs to end with "than [comparator group]" and be backed up by verifiable data. "Some black people commit more crimes" doesn't make any sense whether you include a comparator group or not, because "some" people from all ethnicities commit more crimes than "other" people from all ethnicities, so this actually tells us nothing at all about how many crimes are committed by black people.

As for "gender critical people are transphobic," or even "some gender critical people are transphobic", you don't appear to understand what gender critical actually means, so neither version is meaningful.

As such, only the first three become facts by adding the word "some" at the beginning, but they are not meaningful facts.

And the latter two make no sense whether you add the word "some" or not.

He needs to understand how to use punctuation correctly.

DeanStockwelll · 19/09/2025 10:02

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 19/09/2025 06:47

I think it’s best to steer clear of politics, religion and sex as an employee in any workspace.

Equally I think workspaces should not align themselves with a political or ideological issue - so no rainbows in the NHS, no healthcare literature on maternity care or gynaecological cancers that use phrases such as pregnant people or people with cervixes, and no pronouns in email signatures, for example.

The most sensible response, thank you.
I think when people are in forced long-term close proximity ( work , family, neighbours etc) staying away from potential divisive conversation is better for everyone.

I have known work colleagues and nighbour fall out in spectacular style because they have found out that their views don't align , despite them been good friends for many years previous to the problem conversation.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 19/09/2025 10:01

Cor some people do keep my scrolling thumb busy

on the article, this individual does very much seem like a ‘type’ don’t they? I’d posit that people who want to do fuck all and expect everything in the work place to be on their terms may be more likely to have some sort of ‘gender identity’

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/09/2025 10:00

Helleofabore · 19/09/2025 09:59

“So are we to understand, from your inclusion of gender critical feminists in your poorly punctuated list, that you now agree that your defamatory statements about us are unacceptable?”

That is how I read it too. I thought ‘well, that is a sign of self awareness that I didn’t expect!’ And I also thought that the ‘I will leave it there’ is also a significant change.

It remains to be seen whether he will actually "leave it there".

Helleofabore · 19/09/2025 09:59

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/09/2025 09:24

I would say that referring to gender critical feminists as "gender criticals" is quite dehumanising in itself, no?

The problem is that people like you twist language so much that we can't trust you when you accuse others of using, for example, "demonising and dehumanising language".

If you could actually give an example of a real quote by a real person, explain why you think they are a gender critical feminist, and explain why you think their language is transphobic/demonising/dehumanising then we could have a discussion about that.

But you won't, for obvious reasons.

Now, if I am to take you in good faith and assume that you intended your meaning to be clear, I would say the following.

If you were to say that [some] Mexicans are rapists, Arabs are terrorists, gay people are pedos [sic] or black people commit more crimes, you would quite rightly be accused of racism or homophobia. Even the fact that you have qualified your statement using the word "some" is no defence to this accusation, because adding the word "some" makes these phrases factually meaningless and so we have to ask ourselves why you are singling out these groups in particular.

However, if you say that "gender critical people are transphobic", even without the use of the word "some", this will be treated as a fact by many people who self ID as "progressive". Our whole group is regularly tarred with this accusation, without any kind of evidence or working being shown. Frequently we aren't even shown the courtesy of being labelled "gender critical" but are referred to as "anti-trans" instead.

So out of the five groups you posted, gender critical feminists are the only group about whom "progressives" consider it acceptable to make defamatory statements. Clearly you think it is acceptable, because you spend all day every day on here doing exactly that.

So are we to understand, from your inclusion of gender critical feminists in your poorly punctuated list, that you now agree that your defamatory statements about us are unacceptable? That they are, in fact, just as unacceptable as accusing Mexicans of being rapists and gay people of being "pedos"?

Edited

“So are we to understand, from your inclusion of gender critical feminists in your poorly punctuated list, that you now agree that your defamatory statements about us are unacceptable?”

That is how I read it too. I thought ‘well, that is a sign of self awareness that I didn’t expect!’ And I also thought that the ‘I will leave it there’ is also a significant change.

Rightsraptor · 19/09/2025 09:54

If I read it right, the claim fell mainly because it was out of time.

This person was on a 12 month fixed term contract starting in January 2022, things hotted up by November that year: was it to do with the contract not being renewed perhaps? That's merely my speculation, as I would have recommended non-renewal if I'd been the decision maker

NotbloodyGivingupYet · 19/09/2025 09:52

Howseitgoin · 19/09/2025 08:29

The original post:

"Some:
Mexicans are rapists = fact.
Arabs are terrorists = fact
Gay people are pedos = fact
Black people commit more crimes = fact
Gender critical people are transphobic = fact"

Got to admit, that "some" word is in fact there in the original post. Sort of floating high above the rest of the post. As if trying to dissociate itself from what follows.
Here are some more words to incorporate or not as people perceive.
See how many ways the meaning of the following sentence can be changed by inserting one or more of the these free-flying qualifiers.
Ah, takes me back to my school days!

Not
Rarely
Always
Seldom
All
Most
Never

People post utter tosh on MN

PumpkinsAndCoconuts · 19/09/2025 09:46

“I’m a woman/ I’m a man/ I’m non-binary” - is simply telling people your gender/sex or what you believe your gender / sex to be.

It’s not quite the same as discussing one’s view on gender identity.

If someone told me they’re non-binary (in a work context) I’d politely nod. Same as somebody telling me they’re vegan when making lunch reservations. It’s not something I would want to discuss at work. Just not.

graceinspace999 · 19/09/2025 09:39

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 19/09/2025 06:47

I think it’s best to steer clear of politics, religion and sex as an employee in any workspace.

Equally I think workspaces should not align themselves with a political or ideological issue - so no rainbows in the NHS, no healthcare literature on maternity care or gynaecological cancers that use phrases such as pregnant people or people with cervixes, and no pronouns in email signatures, for example.

Yes to this. People change like the wind and opinions (as we know well can cost jobs)

Workplaces should not be allowed to impose religious/ideological restrictions or beliefs in workers.

This would help prevent a lot of the hypocritical virtue signalling that weak people indulge in to try and ‘keep in’ with whichever side is the biggest bully.

ArabellaSaurus · 19/09/2025 09:38

Shedmistress · 19/09/2025 09:37

Typical 'bait and swich'

a - bring some completely unrelated things to a thread
b - making those unrelated things false and arguable
c - spends all day derailing the thread arguing about the intricacies of the completely unrelated things.

I've had kids in my 'unable to attend regular school' classes who tried to do this all day long. It was tiresome then, and it is tiresome now.

But that's the point, it is designed to try and tire everyone out or to exasperate someone so badly that they say 'Oh, just fuck off' and then they are the one that gets banned.

Yep.

Shedmistress · 19/09/2025 09:37

Typical 'bait and swich'

a - bring some completely unrelated things to a thread
b - making those unrelated things false and arguable
c - spends all day derailing the thread arguing about the intricacies of the completely unrelated things.

I've had kids in my 'unable to attend regular school' classes who tried to do this all day long. It was tiresome then, and it is tiresome now.

But that's the point, it is designed to try and tire everyone out or to exasperate someone so badly that they say 'Oh, just fuck off' and then they are the one that gets banned.

MycatLarry · 19/09/2025 09:33

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 19/09/2025 07:53

Erm no. These are not facts.

Are you in the US?

Did you miss the word "Some"?

ArabellaSaurus · 19/09/2025 09:33

Howseitgoin · 19/09/2025 08:15

Lol, are you seriously suggesting a Mexican never committed a rape? 🤪

Why the fuck are you lolling at rape? How old are you?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/09/2025 09:24

Howseitgoin · 19/09/2025 09:03

Listen, as you are clearly unable to comprehend a simple concept as in the weaponisation of facts that apply to some of an identity group as representative of the whole group then I think we will leave it there.

As far as some gender criticals using dehumanising & demonising language, yes that is a fact & maybe a fact you perhaps can't recognise because it may be acceptable to you.

I would say that referring to gender critical feminists as "gender criticals" is quite dehumanising in itself, no?

The problem is that people like you twist language so much that we can't trust you when you accuse others of using, for example, "demonising and dehumanising language".

If you could actually give an example of a real quote by a real person, explain why you think they are a gender critical feminist, and explain why you think their language is transphobic/demonising/dehumanising then we could have a discussion about that.

But you won't, for obvious reasons.

Now, if I am to take you in good faith and assume that you intended your meaning to be clear, I would say the following.

If you were to say that [some] Mexicans are rapists, Arabs are terrorists, gay people are pedos [sic] or black people commit more crimes, you would quite rightly be accused of racism or homophobia. Even the fact that you have qualified your statement using the word "some" is no defence to this accusation, because adding the word "some" makes these phrases factually meaningless and so we have to ask ourselves why you are singling out these groups in particular.

However, if you say that "gender critical people are transphobic", even without the use of the word "some", this will be treated as a fact by many people who self ID as "progressive". Our whole group is regularly tarred with this accusation, without any kind of evidence or working being shown. Frequently we aren't even shown the courtesy of being labelled "gender critical" but are referred to as "anti-trans" instead.

So out of the five groups you posted, gender critical feminists are the only group about whom "progressives" consider it acceptable to make defamatory statements. Clearly you think it is acceptable, because you spend all day every day on here doing exactly that.

So are we to understand, from your inclusion of gender critical feminists in your poorly punctuated list, that you now agree that your defamatory statements about us are unacceptable? That they are, in fact, just as unacceptable as accusing Mexicans of being rapists and gay people of being "pedos"?

Helleofabore · 19/09/2025 09:15

It is as contentious to say ‘there are two sexes’, as it is to say ‘the earth is roughly spherical’ . If a person cannot accept proven and established scientific facts then it isn’t up to others to have to avoid those discussions.

TwelvePercent · 19/09/2025 09:12

Attention seeker with limited grasp of reality, twists reality and seeks attention, attempting to ruin a woman's career in the process.

Them sounds a treat.

Ariana12 · 19/09/2025 09:04

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 19/09/2025 07:53

Erm no. These are not facts.

Are you in the US?

Quite! There is neither a causal nor correlative link between those weird couplings of words. And it is factually indisputable- at least by the sane- that human mammals are sexually dimorphic ( there are only 2 sexes)

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