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Rising Christian nationalism: a threat to us all

439 replies

IwantToRetire · 18/09/2025 18:41

Article by Humanist UK, so doesn't really reflect on the impact on women although does mention abortion rights.

But I do think that our politics are far more influenced by the US, not for any deep reasons, but so much of our TV is now americanised.

And some of the fundamentalist UD christian groups have very regressive attitude towards women.

https://humanists.uk/2025/09/17/rising-christian-nationalism-a-threat-to-us-all/

OP posts:
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DeanElderberry · 29/09/2025 13:17

If 'us all' means the 150k people in Humanists UK I unfortunately start thinking of the only person I knew (an English bloke) who insisted on everyone knowing he was a card-carrying member and was very smug about his superiority to religious believers. In many ways a pleasant, apparently kind man, he was the only person I've come across who knew, and pointed out (disapprovingly), which people working in our field were Jewish, and to what extent they followed Kosher food rules. Which was disturbing. Then I heard he'd been sentenced to more than a year in prison for disseminating child sex abuse images.

I know there was only one of him and he is no more typical of Humanists than sexually abusive priests are typical of all Catholics. But I find the discussion more interesting if 'us all' isn't limited to them.

Merrymouse · 29/09/2025 13:01

Going back to Tommy Robinson and Christian Nationalism, I think 'Christianity' is being used as a synonym for western culture, in opposition to muslim culture, and including 'American' culture, but excluding 'the libs' and probably the Church of England.

I'm not sure where the majority of Christians, who don't live in Europe or North America, fit into all of this.

persephonia · 29/09/2025 12:40

Agree, I think that there are increasingly divisive movements springing up across the globe. There have always been problems in some areas, and tense situations in others. But I think a number of forces, some of them natural (resource shortage) some technical (the internet) are exacerbating existing fractures. And there are also powerful rich people fanning the flames for their own purposes..I can't do much practical to support people in Africa except donate money or pray, but in this country I think we also have a responsibility to push back on deliberately divisive narratives (that's not the same as shutting down people with legitimate concerns or issues).

DeanElderberry · 29/09/2025 12:33

I meant 'humans like us'. I was assuming, again, that 'us all' meant 'us all'.

I'm appalled at the growth of sectarian violence, in Africa and elsewhere.

persephonia · 29/09/2025 12:30

If you are a Christian then the Christians being attacked in Nigeria are us, but also so are all human beings. Doesn't mean you have to mention everyone every time you try to discuss specific issues. But this tribalism of "Christians like us" is very... UnChristian.

Edited because I posted too soon: I don't think there's anything wrong with fundraising for say persecuted Christians in China, or Palestinian Christians, or Nigerian Christians specifically

DeanElderberry · 29/09/2025 12:27

ArabellaSaurus · 29/09/2025 09:57

We are talking about the UK, that is the whole premise of the thread.

I'm not talking about the UK.

When the OP said 'us all' I assumed it meant us all.

I'm appalled by the ever increasing violence against Christians in Africa, who are 'us' too.

Imnobody4 · 29/09/2025 12:15

This is an interesting but long article. It shows the importance of context and analysis. There's far too much just plucking a verse and applying it literally.

https://www.gaymarriageandthebible.com/the-death-penalty-in-leviticus-20

The Death Penalty in Leviticus 20:13 — Gay Marriage and the Bible

https://www.gaymarriageandthebible.com/the-death-penalty-in-leviticus-20

persephonia · 29/09/2025 11:01

Alicealig · 29/09/2025 10:39

You obviously have no logical argument to present against that, which is why you couldn't mange more than two words. I appreciate that effort though.

I think more there already was a long and quiet nuanced discussion on this earlier on the thread. I don't like "read the full thread" police, but equally it's not very interesting to go round and round and over the same issues and arguments every time a new poster comes by. It makes threads too vulnerable to derailling and the hairy handed.

Alicealig · 29/09/2025 10:39

ArabellaSaurus · 29/09/2025 10:34

Simplistic fallacy.

You obviously have no logical argument to present against that, which is why you couldn't mange more than two words. I appreciate that effort though.

ArabellaSaurus · 29/09/2025 10:34

Alicealig · 29/09/2025 10:10

I think the scientific also comes into play in that debate too. We all know, or at least should, that life begins at conception, so I think the only argument worth having is you either value human life, or you don't.

Simplistic fallacy.

Alicealig · 29/09/2025 10:27

TempestTost · 28/09/2025 01:10

It's been some time, but as far as I recall, TS was addressing the claim that inner city black ghetto culture (gang culture, really) is the authentic black culture which came over with slaves from Africa. Often with a follow up claim that therefore it needs to be accepted or else its racist. It's usually not expressed quite the same way today but you still see the general idea in claims that, for instance, black people shouldn't be expected to be on time, or black kids in school shouldn't be expected to learn "white" math.

Sowell's claim is that is not the case that this is authentic black culture that came from Africa. His argument is that the slaves largely lost most of their African culture within a generation or two, and often what replaced it was the culture of the poor whites around them - what is sometimes referred to "Cracker" culture in the US. These people were largely descended from Scots-Irish pioneers, many of whom had been part of the underclass back in the old country. They were rural, and were not what you would consider diligent working farmers, but the kind of people who drank and sang a lot, were emotional and thought a lot of their honour, fought a lot, and only did the bare minimum of work to get by. At least that was the stereotype of them and there are some sociological studies that suggest there was some validity to that stereotype.

According to Sowell both these poor blacks and whites ended up adopting much the same religion, social values, way of life, and even language elements. Many moved North eventually to cities in mass migrations where they were often not well recieved by Northerners whatever race they happened to be.

Sowell's claim is that the problematic elements of ghetto culture are what remains of these people.

Sowell is quite a contraversial character, and even referencing his works sends people into a frenzy of calling it racist (they ignore the irony that he's black himself).

He believed there were and are deeply rooted reasons, which we are not yet mature enough as a population, as to why white people seem to always flourish to a greater extent. His works are very well written and researched, a true modern thinker.

Alicealig · 29/09/2025 10:10

MusettasWaltz · 28/09/2025 15:41

Exactly. Similarly I think Judaism has always seen the foetus as becoming a baby halfway down the birth canal, so traditionally Judaism has not been fraught by abortion debates the way Christianity has

Otoh I've read accounts by Jewish women who said rabbis didn't seem to understand how upsetting early miscarriages were due to this understanding. It's such a tough issue..

I agree the extreme certainty in the US on both sides of the debate does seem odd when the Bible is vague.

I think the scientific also comes into play in that debate too. We all know, or at least should, that life begins at conception, so I think the only argument worth having is you either value human life, or you don't.

MrsSkylerWhite · 29/09/2025 10:06

LidlAmaretto · 29/09/2025 10:03

No but we are talking about Christian fundamentalists when across the world Christians are being persecuted ( and often become refugees) as a result of persecution by Islamist and other fundamentalist groups. Far more are victims of fundamentalism than there are Christian fundamentalists.

Confused. I’ve been told off by another poster because apparently this thread is about Christianity in the UK.

LidlAmaretto · 29/09/2025 10:03

MrsSkylerWhite · 29/09/2025 09:55

Don’t imagine those things are being done by homosexuals.

No but we are talking about Christian fundamentalists when across the world Christians are being persecuted ( and often become refugees) as a result of persecution by Islamist and other fundamentalist groups. Far more are victims of fundamentalism than there are Christian fundamentalists.

ArabellaSaurus · 29/09/2025 09:57

MrsSkylerWhite · 29/09/2025 09:38

Not if you happen to live in an African country, it isn’t.

We are talking about the UK, that is the whole premise of the thread.

MrsSkylerWhite · 29/09/2025 09:55

LidlAmaretto · 29/09/2025 09:43

When Christians aren't worrying about being murdered or their daughters being kidnapped from school.

Don’t imagine those things are being done by homosexuals.

LidlAmaretto · 29/09/2025 09:43

MrsSkylerWhite · 29/09/2025 09:38

Not if you happen to live in an African country, it isn’t.

When Christians aren't worrying about being murdered or their daughters being kidnapped from school.

MrsSkylerWhite · 29/09/2025 09:38

ArabellaSaurus · 26/09/2025 20:11

Look, of all the world religions, Christianity is one of the most tolerant of homosexuality. After a long, thoughtful, and wide ranging discussion, your post is such absurdly alarmist bollocks you must surely be embarrassed? At least pretend to make an effort.

Not if you happen to live in an African country, it isn’t.

DeanElderberry · 28/09/2025 17:15

Yes.

But the Orthodox church would say that's them.

Merrymouse · 28/09/2025 17:11

Also re: Catholics, I'm happy to be corrected on this, but if you are a Catholic, isn't the point more that you are just a bog standard Christian and everyone else is a splitter?

Merrymouse · 28/09/2025 17:08

We refer to 'broad churches' when we talk about political parties that can include people with a range of views, and from what I understand the C of E is intentionally a broad church.

If you want to be strict, a Christian must believe in the Nicene creed, but I think that relates more to faith than practice.

persephonia · 28/09/2025 15:48

Oh and on Aquinus- it's almost as if Aquinus- himself understood the limits of his own intellect/understanding within the vastness of creation and the impossibility of adequately describing god/the religious experience with human language. But many of the people that went on to quote him didn't. That's my interpretation anyway.

persephonia · 28/09/2025 15:41

MusettasWaltz · 28/09/2025 15:24

Totally agree. I remember learning that about Aquinas & rape in RS and everyone feeling a bit ill. I agree he said a lot of wise things
-my opinion on people like Aquinas is simular to people like Gandhi - ascetic/hermit types who mean well & have great spirituality/insight but at the same time seem detached somewhat from everyday life. I also think his Five Proofs are a bit overrated as Catholic apologetics.

thinking, didn't he say at the end of his life that he'd had a vision and wouldn't write again as everything he had written 'looked like straw'? Must check that...

I agree about masturbation. I've read about seminarians being told even recently in Italy & possibly elsewhere that's it's awful and will even make you blind. It does seem esp harsh for priests who have to be celibate otherwise. I know some are happy that way but I don't think the celibacy rule is good overall.

The celibacy/masturbation thing never seemed that healthy to me either (not that your average Catholic priests would/should care what I think). It's almost like setting someone up to fail. I sort of understand Augustine of Hippo's argument that it being difficult is part of the point-its about putting god at the centre and that takes sacrifice. But it also seems to lead to women needing to cover themselves so as not to tempt men which surely negates the point of the sacrifice/personal struggle with the self on behalf of God.
Whether or not I understand it though, if that's how people want to live their lives/that's how they feel they should to feel closer to God then let them. I just don't want it interfering with my rights.

MusettasWaltz · 28/09/2025 15:41

Exactly. Similarly I think Judaism has always seen the foetus as becoming a baby halfway down the birth canal, so traditionally Judaism has not been fraught by abortion debates the way Christianity has

Otoh I've read accounts by Jewish women who said rabbis didn't seem to understand how upsetting early miscarriages were due to this understanding. It's such a tough issue..

I agree the extreme certainty in the US on both sides of the debate does seem odd when the Bible is vague.