Rising Christian nationalism: a threat to us all

"No women in the UK are required to wear burkas" are you seriously claiming that? Every single muslim woman covering her face is doing so with 100% free choice and 0% "requirement". That mosques, Imams, husbands, fathers, sons, brothers and wider Islamic community have no impact?

Justify what you are saying by reference to photos of Iran in the 1970s compared to now.

Can you list all the christian-dominated / historically christian countries in the world, and all the muslim ones, and present me an argument that the culture in the muslim ones is as good or better than in the christian ones.

I believe that countries / cultures with less authoritarianism, misogyny, homophobia, FGM, forced marriage, cousin marriage and hiding of women's faces are objectively better than those with more of those things.

I find it hard to see how someone can credibly claim that "western culture" is not superior to "muslim culture", and that's even taking into account the insane misogyny and homophobia of TQ+.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. No women in the UK are required to wear burkas, in fact we'd generally prefer they not do that. Women have equal rights to men so I can't so that changing anytime soon

My parents immigrated from a small village in Italy to Australia along with their very regressive views on women. Those views died with my birth, my siblings & my first generation peers even though we were raised in Italian immigrant ghettoes. I think you will find that where liberty allows, people overwhelmingly choose liberty over slavery given the choice.

What does more immigration mean for women's rights? Many immigrant groups are very right wing and regressive and make odd bedfellows witg the progressive left (which is nothing of the kind of course). Is it right that many women in the UK have to wear burkas?

I'd prefer it if society tackled the importing of destructive American Left victimhood omnicause politics instead of catastrophising about what some cranks might or might not do. We even had George Floyd riots in the UK ffs. Frankly, the article smells like shit-throwing and DARVO to me.

I agree Christian nationalism is a threat to women in the UK not so much for its conservative approach but because its a proxy for white nationalism. Christianity is exploited by white nationalists in name only. They don't ascribe to the word of Jesus rather they equate it with a 'superior culture' & thus bring new people into the fold who are worried about foreign cultures engulfing the UK. What's very concerning for women is that white nationalists are very concerned about the birth rate declining which necessitates the economic need for immigrants who are more likely to come from non white cultures. They see reproductive rights & women working as a direct threat to the proliferation of the white race hence the anti abortion/birth control movements in the US gaining popularity particularly amongst men.

So its important to not just understand Christian nationalism & Reform in the context of 'anti immigration' but for the potential of what less immigration will mean for women's rights.

What's interesting to me is that the evangelical churches in the UK, which you'd think are the equivalent of these big, political, evangelical churches in the US, are culturally so far removed.

They tend to attract a lot of young people due to lively services and music etc. They often have some conservative values such as no sex before marriage and some encourage women to take a more traditional role. However in my years of attending (although this is now 15-20 years ago) I never heard any politics discussed. The people I mixed with were if anything generally more left-leaning, and interested in following Jesus' example of looking out for vulnerable people in society. Many of the Christians I know are actively involved in things like refugee support charities, women's refuges and so on.

I have a Christian family member who moved to the US and eventually gave up on church there because they were all so extremely political. And so contrasting to what she had been brought up with and been used to in UK churches her whole life.

In terms of women's rights, I definitely don't think the typical Christian view here is as regressive as in the US. I'm not really sure what to think or expect though to be honest - I don't have much faith in the church as a whole standing up for women's rights to the extent that I would like.

If the far right here try to weaponise Christianity (which I do think is a danger) and encourage this form of Christian Nationalism, it will be interesting to see how the modern UK churches respond to this. I really hope they would take a public stand against it.

Agree. I am a Christian feminist. I recoil from the idea of so- called Christians hanging around abortion clinics to re-traumatise patients and it’s the very opposite of how Jesus behaved. But, on the plus side, their numbers are few. I don’t like to be complacent but I think it’s highly unlikely you’ll see the insane right in this country claiming to act in the name of religion - as others have said, it’s a very different culture from the US and much more female-focused. Most believers at the churches I go to are very wise and wonderful women - and they’d hate the idea of abortion protests every bit as much as I do.

I share a lot of your views—especially the challenge of being progressive within a traditional faith. That said, I do think there’s more happening beneath the surface than people usually realise. Catholicism seems to be quietly growing again, especially in London. At first, I thought it was just media spin or sensationalism, but from what I’ve seen myself, churches are now full, standing room only now at my local church if I don;t get there early —and not just with older people, but young men. Also, when I was on holiday in Cornwall - I noticed the same thing. The around the corner, the Pentecostal churches are full to bursting, and seems a vibrant community. There are green-shoots for sure

Yeah, that's my feeling. There's nothing like the culture 'infrastructure' here for fundamentalist Christianity, but that isn't to say they won't throw a lot of money after anyone who might advance their ideals to control women and move towards forcing us out of the public sphere.

Reform, for example, wouldn't go 'women should all be back in the home' but I can certainly imagine them advancing ideas that maternity leave is too long and too much for business, and women being out of the workforce makes the UK 'uncompetitive'. And then reducing mat leave and making it easier to discriminate against mothers without consequences (sad to say, that's not too hard now), causing more women to have to drop out of the workforce and making it harder for childbearing age women to get work. I could see regressive American movements encouraging this in the background with ££££

I don't think there will be a rise of Christian fundamentalism in the UK. But the US Christian right is quite clearly funelling money and talking points into UK politics and media. The Christian message won't wash here, but I do worry they will just frame the misogyny in a way that will resonate here among some of the already targeted demographic; joining the men's rights movement/Tate shit/angry men online explicitly to right wing politics. I'm sure there is already a huge overlap, so that gradually including some of the talking points into the news channel and marches is not a massive stretch.

Yep me too.

Was being sarcastic.

Was referring to the fact that women have had to go to court to confirm that sex is recognised in law.

'Dualsim' in she sense of having a soul that is separate to the body, so it's possible to have the 'wrong' body.

Can you give any examples? I'm struggling to understand where the threat is as all you've said is it's a threat. What do they believe that's so bad?

I find Humanists UK far creepier and more misogynistic, given their dogged, unfalsifiable faith in gender ideology
Yes I agree. Some members of my extended family are humanists. I find them far more rigid and sneering in their beliefs than most Christians I know.

I'm sorry about that.

I've been to several.Humanist weddings/funerals, and often they talked more about Humanism than the people involved. Ironically, it was a bit like being at a Catholic event where the sermon dragged on interminably.

Honestly, what a lot of scare-story nonsense from Humanists UK. To imply that Britain is about to become The Handmaid's Tale is ridiculous.

To give just one example: the article mentions the Church Revitalisation Trust as if it's some sort of sinister cabale. I've had dealings with the CRT. They're a group of amiable Anglicans who want to help enliven struggling churches and spruce up old church buildings. And their CEO is a strong, capable woman (who clearly didn't get the memo that she should have stayed in the kitchen).

I find Humanists UK far creepier and more misogynistic, given their dogged, unfalsifiable faith in gender ideology.

And Humanists UK neglect to mention that the most violent, repressive regimes of all were the fanatically secularist ones from the 18th to the 20th century: the French Revolution, the USSR, Mao's China, Pol Pot's Cambodia, North Korea...

We have all faiths represented in the house of Lords. However, the bishops of the CofE are there as part of the constitutional settlement of the late seventeenth century (Act of Settlement, the Bill of Right etc, a result of the long revolution that started in the 1640s). Christianity is the basis of the law in the UK, and institutionalised in the monarchy and the constitution (that thing people think we do not have, but that we do, it is uncodified, not non-existent).

Christianity itself is the basis of European culture as well and cannot be disaggregated from it.

Unrelated to TWAW crap, for my dad's funeral we had a humanist celebrant who was annoyingly stern and dogmatic. Wouldn't let us use a popular anthem that was one of my dad's favoirites, just because it mentioned "God" in one of the verses. My dad was an atheist and just liked the music. Always regretted getting the humanists involved after that.

For my mum's funeral we got this spiritualist celebrant and she was so laid back and accommodating, it was a wonderful celebration and such a contrast.

Anyway sorry to derail, this was years ago and it just reminded me what they're like. Or what one of them was like anyhow.

Yes, the article is unintentionally humorous in the way the writer knows all about the US and very little about the UK.

Separation of church and state - we don’t have that.

Reintroduction of Christian prayers to begin council meetings - the horror. They’ll be starting each Parliamentary day with prayers next!

The church Revitalisation Trust which ‘plants churches around the UK like trees’. Whatever next? Churches in every parish?

And so on. I was particularly impressed by their shock that Christians might want to evangelise and that a 2000 year old religion can sometimes play ‘the long game’.

But I think the brand of Christian nationalism in America runs much deeper than prom nights or halloween. That's not to say we shouldn't keep an eye on its influence here though - there is a lot of money behind them and they will ally with anyone they think might go along with their way of thinking, Christian or not. I mean, just look at Trump - they know full well he isn't the slightest bit Christian, but they scratch one another's backs to help consolidate their power.

A coalition including Reform, if not a Reform govt, looks more likely by the day, and will continue to do so as long as the centre and left fail to listen.

But I dont know that Reform are anything other than vaguely noncommital CofE?

The one thing I’m not worried about is the rise of Christianity in the UK. Churchgoing has never been lower and will never recover. Opening shops on a Sunday put paid to that (and I’m not objecting to that). I am a pro-choice, pro-divorce, pro-contraception, pro-sex before marriage, gender critical church going catholic woman (if you can get your head around that mess!) and I am very aware that I will continue to be in a minority. The only churches which remain popular are some of the pastor-led African Christian churches and you won’t see many Reformers in there.