Rising Christian nationalism: a threat to us all

@JamieCannister

Something is certainly happening and it predates the September rally. Church goers (a few churches) say it started late last year.

The Community centres are closing, a pint of beer is extortionate, music is missing, we don’t even talk to a shop assistant due to those bloody self serve machines. Youth clubs gone, library’s closing. A coffee is almost £5.

Streets full of those e scooters and teenage boys wearing Covid face masks still - presumably to avoid being spotted rather than the worry of giving Covid to their Grandmother.

Modern hymns, Plainsong, Latin music, well played instruments, amazing singers and bible stories with a cup of tea, a chat with a few friendly people and a donation that is not compulsory. Maybe it should be considered by lonely people as a way of being part of something. The buildings have history and are peaceful. You can learn to bell ring for free. Sing for free. Play your instrument. Singing helps mental health.

It was cool and rebellious to mock religion in the 1990s. Whenever I say I have attended service people are shocked - it appears its rebellious in the 2020s to attend church. How things change.

I am not judging individuals, I am judging cultures that are created, whether they are created by minorities or majorities.

I am perfectly prepared to believe that in a hypothetical world Islam and Christianity, Muslim countries and western liberal christian-originated democracies, can both be as good as each other.

On the other hand I believe that there are particular issues with regards the way the Koran is much more likely to be taken literally as written, and not considered and updated and applied with nuance as in Christianity, and I believe that there are reasons culturally why muslim countries often end up like Iran or Syria, whilst Christian-dominated countries often end up with liberal democracies.

Trick or treat is only part of Halloween. You still have Halloween and all the rest of it.

The UK have always had Proms.

Namechangeragin said

However the positive messages and community may be a life line for the elderly and people who are lonely. Coffee mornings, music, meetings etc would give people something to look forward to and enjoy the company of others.

I think over recent decades part of the reason local communities have splintered and collapsed is because the local church and the local community are so linked, and people wanted nothing to do with the local church.

I think that part of what is going on now is that people are thinking "I need community, and if that means embracing cultural christianity then that is what I'll have to do". Maybe not consciously, but I believe this is a factor at play.

Um, you know Iran was only recently overtaken by a theocracy? A lot of islamic countries aren't free democratic societies with varying geo/socio political influences that prevent freedom so its inaccurate to judge individuals from the limitations of their government.

Cousin marriage - guardian article from 2001 so historic however no reason to believe it is untrue. Not just cousin marriages but Uncle to Niece is also discussed.

www.theguardian.com/society/2001/mar/14/guardiansocietysupplement6

Extract - This practice of wedding close relatives - known as consanguineous marriages - is common among Muslims all over the world, and particularly so in Britain. In Birmingham, almost 80% of arranged marriages in the 70,000-strong community are cousin-to-cousin or uncle-to-niece.
"I can name you at least 40 couples off the top of my head who are all in first-cousin marriages," says Raja, who is a community liaison officer for Birmingham city council. "It is such an important part of our culture. It has been practised since at least the 14th century. We do it because we believe it is important to keep a tight-knit, supportive family - especially here in Britain, where we need to keep our roots strong."

We are talking about culture.

I don't believe that the average iranian is a massive fan of extremist islam, let alone the average British muslim... but that does not alter the fact that Iranian culture is what it is.

My take is that there are two things going on here.

(1) More and more white Brits are embracing Christianity, I supect in no small part due to the world getting more and more confusing, nasty and divided and they are drawn to something that is stable and gives them hope.

(2) [Much bigger, I believe] Lots of people (including me, someone who has despised Christianity since I was 8 or 10 and has pretty much always claimed to be a militant atheist) are beginning to realize that the liberal, friendly, polite, democratic British culture I love does owe an awful lot to Christianity, and when my culture feels under threat I need to protect Christianity as well, and not just the other aspects of my culture. Even as a militant atheist I have come to realize in the last year or so that Christians preaching on the streets are - in the scheme of things - my allies.

Do you have any evidence that most Muslims support these ideas?

What is Christianity if not another religion imported from the middle east via a bunch of Romans that came over the channel in small boats hundreds of years ago.

They invaded and forced us to convert, albeit syncretically, by renaming our pagan festivals. They then chased all our "priestly" class onto the isle of Angelsey and murdered them!

This is what makes me laugh whenever people start banging on about Christian nationalism.

One child focused service had risen from 20 to 70 in 12 months (July 24 to July 25) - which they are shocked by. This predates Tommy Robinsons rally.

However when people cannot afford to do day trips and eat out or watch bands - church is sociable and affordable for all. Fish and chip nights, quizzes, choir. All accessible and friendly and low cost.

I struggle to see how the fact that a significant minority of the UK population are a problem due to drugs, the crime they commit etc, and the fact that our version of capitalism is failing, is comparable to literal government and widespread societal support for FGM, cousin marriage, death to gays and deeply misogynistic ideas pushed on all women and girls.

I have attended several church services very recently they are pro trans, pro Palestine and there is very little praying for Christian’s who have been murdered. Personally i think it was too liberal, and i say that as someone who agrees with homosexuality and abortions.

However the positive messages and community may be a life line for the elderly and people who are lonely. Coffee mornings, music, meetings etc would give people something to look forward to and enjoy the company of others.

What I noticed was everyone is welcome regardless of belief and no one was forced to sing or pray. You could just observe, were given a warm drink and the elderly were assisted if needed. If an elderly person didn’t show up someone would check they were not in need of assistance. If someone is unwell they will visit them or pick up groceries. Even bring them to the service if needed.

Maybe church would help with the loneliness and isolation. Christian values are positive values. People are forgiven. You can atone for things you have done wrong. You take care of you family and your friends. But I think there needs to be more focus on caring for the people you know first. Those you can make a true difference to.

I think the churches encouragement to take part is good for lonely or isolated or shy people as anyone can play a part in running a coffee morning or reading a prayer or handing out bibles - this may give people confidence or purpose.

We are in a secular country and no religion should be above criticism and no one should be put in prison or sacked for criticism of any religion.

But after attending several services I think it’s positive and I hope people do attend services and add value to their community. (I attend for the live music).

( I can see why the church have embraced Trans as it suggests believers think your soul and body are separate entities). But I also know from friends who attend weekly that church numbers are rising.

I thought the message at the Tommy Robinson rally was peculiar. Anyone who pays any attention knows that most white British people are not practising Christians and that the people most likely to practise Christianity in the UK are those of African or West Indian heritage. So try squaring that circle, Tommy.

US cultural attitudes are having a big influence over here, it's true - see the rise of identity politics. So I'm not ruling out a rise in Christian evangelism. But it would mean reversing the direction of travel over the past 50 years.

Anywhere where fundamentalist religious belief of any type takes a hold on society is not a good place for women or gay people. Tommy Robinson supporters extol the virtues of living in a ‘Christian’ society as a shorthand for meaning non-Muslim. Most of them are as interested in seeing the inside of a church and reading the bible as I am ie. not in the slightest. And their championing of those opposed to trans gender ideology often grinds to a halt when it comes face-to-face with any sort of Feminism - they just don’t want Muslim men touching ‘our’ women. Both sides want women to inhabit a world controlled by their male desires and ideas of what a ‘good’ woman should be.

We see the manipulation and false ‘ally ship’ - we’re not stupid.

I agree if it was just a little weed & the occasional bet but we both know its significantly worse hence broken relationships, AA, millions of people being exploited by barely a living wage & only fans skyrocketing not to mention white men hardly strangers to domestic violence.

I was trying to compare contemporary culture. Perhaps we should start a new thread to compare life in western europe and the middle east in the 1200s?

I think that someone who smokes a bit of weed, bets on the horses and tries to get away with not giving pay rises to the staff in his small business is infinitely culturally better than a man who supports all women having to cover their face, the destruction of Israel and the idea that his daughter should be forced to marry her Pakistani cousin and bring him to the UK.

I understand we've had killings and that's abhorrent. I'm not for these types of people I actually believe if Islam had just surfaced recently it would be banned as a religion and indeed, although, impractical, think it should be banned.

British people are too lazy to adopt fundamental Christianity in the U.K. One of the interviews I saw with a Palestinian protestor was the reason Britain is so popular is it is considered to have no recognised wide scale religion, so it’s easy to practice any religion here.

I think if we are to worry about anything that America is peddling online it’s a severe lack of critical thinking and a lack of education for the masses. So many people seem to be unable to debate or understand

We've had killings of young women in this country. I don't want to use the term normally applied because it's anything but 'honour'.

It's also extremely foolish to assume assimilation and progress. We have MPs for Gaza, ghettos, schools where no child speaks English as a first language and authorities bending over backwards to prioritise other beliefs.

Really depends on where and when western culture starts - if the latter part of the 20th century I think we can be proud of our progress on human rights.

We have had our ups and downs though...

I believe that countries / cultures with less authoritarianism, misogyny, homophobia, FGM, forced marriage, cousin marriage and hiding of women's faces are objectively better than those with more of those things.

There have been points in history when Europe has been full steam ahead on authoritarianism, misogny, homophobia, forced marriage and cousin marriage.

(I will give you the the point on covering faces and FGM)

Clearly freedom is better than slavery. But to assume culture is inherent is false given that the majority of Muslim immigrants are law abiding & assimilate over time.

While I concur the West is superior in terms of freedom of individual expression that too encompasses slavery in terms of hedonistic addictions. A culture where drinking, drugs, gambling & exploiting people as commodities is normalised can hardly be throwing stones…

We aren't talking about Iran. So of course I'm claiming no women are required. It's lunacy to claim otherwise. It may be fair to say some women are influenced by their culture or familial values but there is absolutely zero requirement to wear anything like that.

Iran on the other hand literally has decency police to ensure correct attire.

GB News regularly and sympathetically has Lois McLatchie from ADF on to spread her anti-abortion shtick.