Rising Christian nationalism: a threat to us all

Absolutely - the Celts/Gauls had to be portrayed as savages to justify their destruction.

Barr77 - I agree that 'Celtic culture didn’t create the kind of unified legal, moral, and institutional framework that Christianity later introduced'

• it had it's own unified legal, moral and institutional framework' long before Christianity made its appearance.

The point is that there wasn't a legal and moral vacuum until Christianity came along. Left to its own devices Celtic society might have developed into a modern, egalitarian, humane and just society that did not rely on Christianity; the complexity and sophistication of the legal system that developed in Ireland supports that possibility.

And just as Julius Caesar had his 'agenda' about the Celts, so had Bede, so I wouldn't take either of them as objective sources in assessing Celtic society.

And I repeat, 'the idea of pagan societies as somehow a utopia for women is romanticisation.' is a straw....er... person
Nobody has suggested that Celtic society [I assume that's what you mean by 'pagan' in this context] was 'a utopia for women'.
But the fact remains that Celtic women had certain rights that it has taken us a long long time to regain.

I'm enjoying this discussion, and enjoying reading everybody's thoughts, Barr77 so I'm not arguing with you, I'm exchanging thoughts, but written down, disagreements can look worse than they would be in person, where it would be a friendly and enjoyable exchange of differing views
Is this a massive derail? sorry if it is, it's such a fascinating area, and there are so many well-informed posters with an array of approaches...

If ethics reflect reality, then ethics are a part of the order of the universe, the nature of things.

If they aren't, they are just made up stuff, meaningless. One set of ethics as "good" as another so long as it fulfils whatever function you personally would like to see. Might makes right, blessed are the meek, whatever.

If we want to talk philosophy, the nature of the universal order is metaphysics, the basis for a coherent ethics. But translated into a practice, especially one that works at the level of community over time, that's religion.

In Ireland the long established practice of law developed without the Romans and independently of Canon Law. There was no nonsense about equality, society (and everything else, land, animals, trees and all) was graded, and commoners and Kings did nor have the same rights or worth. The basic unit of value (we didn't have coins) was a female slave.

Caesar on the Gauls is hardly unbiased history. He had to justify his brutal and unprovoked invasion of a neighbour and trading partner of Rome. He was hardly going to paint them as a nation of benevolent humanitarians.

If you think atheism is an indicator of tolerance, 20th century history would like to have a word.

Thanks for your points — and I completely agree that the Celts had a rich culture, impressive trade networks, and technological innovations.

The point I’ve been trying to make isn’t about denying their achievements, but about placing them in context: pre-Christian Britain was fragmented into multiple kingdoms, often violent and brutal, with raids and human sacrifices, famously described by Julius Caesar in De Bello Gallico — see the wicker man ritual.

And Celtic culture didn’t create the kind of unified legal, moral, and institutional framework that Christianity later introduced.

One poster mentioned St Bede above: he was the first to write a comprehensive history of the English people in his ‘Ecclesiastical History of the English people’ he chronicled events from the Roman period up to his own time, focusing on the spread of Christianity and its impact on society. His work, like other. monks helped create a coherent understanding of the islands’ past and laid the foundation for a shared historical framework.

Regarding women, I acknowledge that some Celtic societies gave women more influence. But it’s important not to overstate it: the idea of pagan societies as somehow a utopia for women is romanticisation. Rights for some women in certain contexts didn’t translate into a consistent system of equality or protection across the population.

So yes, Celtic society was rich and
sophisticated in many ways, but the long-term shaping of law, justice, and social norms in Britain owes far more to the frameworks established under Christianity than to pagan structures. Recognising that influence doesn’t dismiss the Celts — it just acknowledges the historical reality of how our society developed.

Don't kid yourself.

Christianity is not tolerant of gay marriage, gay sex or gay people even existing.

I am personally glad to see Christianity on the decline in Britain and more people being atheist instead.

You’ve raised fair questions. Yes, human societies have always had codes of fairness and cooperation. But what Tom Holland argues in ‘Dominion’ is that Christianity universalised those instincts in a way that was completely new. It wasn’t just “protect your own tribe” — it was “every human life matters,” even the poor, the outsider, even the enemy.

Holland gives the example of infant exposure in Rome. A baby wasn’t considered part of the family until the father formally accepted it. If he didn’t, the child could be abandoned — often girls or disabled infants — and this was accepted as custom, not considered murder. Christianity broke from that. From its earliest teachings, exposure was condemned, because every child was seen as bearing God’s image. As Holland points out, the belief that even the weakest life has equal worth was a revolutionary moral stance in the ancient world.

On slavery — yes, Christians owned slaves for centuries, but the logic of their faith carried the seeds of abolition. Once you accept that all souls are equal before God, the institution is undermined from within. That’s why abolitionist movements like Wilberforce’s were so deeply rooted in Christian conviction.

So while morality may evolve, Christianity introduced something genuinely new into the world: the belief in the intrinsic value of every human being.

And that shift reshaped the moral landscape in ways we still take for granted today — from law and social norms to the foundations of the welfare state and modern ideas of justice.

Because of this, what we consider justice — what we consider right and wrong — is rooted in Christian principles. Unlike the Romans or other ancient civilisations, where morality was based on custom, status, or family duty, Christianity framed justice around universal human worth.

l’ve always thought (as a Christian) that there was a reason Jesus was born when and where he was. And part of that was that he could draw on and develop a couple of thousand years of religious thought. The gospels are very keen on pointing back to the Old Testament and there was a consistent refusal to ‘start again with Jesus’.

Christianity definitely didn’t invent the ideas about mercy, generosity to the poor, kindness to the stranger and love that are a running theme through the prophets. I would say that there were two strands of Judaism that survived the destruction of the Temple. Rabbinical Judaism was one, Christianity was the other. Both have developed quite extensively in the two thousand years.

Sadly, like many siblings, they don’t always get on.

"Reminds me of the Tower of Babel story ..."

Also JD Vance and Rory Stewart arguing over how to interpret 'love thy neighbour'.

It's also worth remembering that all translators (and perhaps even more so with paraphrasers) bring their own assumptions and biases to their work. They are well aware of this, of course, but it isn't possible to avoid completely. This applies to all translations, of other works too. Muslims frown on translations of the Koran, partly for this reason, though reading with full understanding is pretty difficult even when the cultural context or lack of knowledge of a language doesn't get in the way. There are plenty of examples of severe lack of comprehension even in this little corner of Mumsnet! Reminds me of the Tower of Babel story ...

Why not just be out for ourselves, and why would that not satisfy us?

Do you need religion for ethics to reflect reality? Emotions like empathy control how we treat others, and the nature of our species means we are more likely to survive if we are part of a society, which requires an ethical framework. Maybe religion is just the expression of that reality?

Or maybe it's not really possible to separate the two? Perhaps religion and faith are essential to human survival.

I love the poetry of the KJV, but it can be a bit daunting if you're not familiar with it.

I'm very fond of the Ronald Knox translation. It's not well known these days outside of elderly English Catholics who remember it being used in parishes in the 60s and 70s, but it manages to be modern and accessible while still quite literary. Knox had a good turn of phrase, as you'll know if you've read his detective stories.

Anyone looking to try reading the Bible and feeling a bit daunted, don't forget about audiobooks. There is a really nice NT read by James Earle Jones which I particularly like, but lots of options. You can get through all the "begats" while out on a walk.

This is such a dismissive attitude to Celtic culture, which was one of the great civilisations of the past. The Celts built cities, had a rich cultural life, were innovators in technology, had widespread trading links - the British Celts were linked by language and culture to that wider world.

Well you have to assume that pre-Christian culture had something going for it, if the British Isles were permanently inhabited for about 10,000 years before Christianity.

The problem with this thread is that I feel I have to go away and read 'Dominium' before coming back to it.

You could also add Simon Sebag Montefiore's 'Jersualem' to your list. Months later I'm still only up to the Ottomans.......but generally it is a portrait of more or less malign or benign rulers of every creed, nation or tribe; consecutive conquests; crucifixtions; beheadings; abominable torture of one sort or another; mothers killing sons; fathers selling off daughters into slavery; licentiousness; drunkenness; madness; ego, and indulgence....plus some pretty spectatcular and/or beautiful buildings along the way.

This has turned into a really interesting discussion about religion in its broadest sense, thank you all.

Thanks in particular to DeanElderberry for that overview of the OT - you must have had your Weetabix early, to be able to produce that at 07.17, it's very detailed and useful and informative

I'm afraid Barr77 is continuing the idea that the inhabitants of these islands were just scrabbling around until Christianity came and put manners on them-
Yes, the islands were pagan once, but that was just scattered tribes and local gods, not a unified culture.

This is such a dismissive attitude to Celtic culture, which was one of the great civilisations of the past. The Celts built cities, had a rich cultural life, were innovators in technology, had widespread trading links - the British Celts were linked by language and culture to that wider world.

What if Celtic society in these islands had been left to develop and flourish, with the intervention of the Romans and later Christiantiy? Impossible to say with certainty, but there is a hint of what might have happened:
In Ireland, because the Romans didn't invade, the ancient Celtic belief system developed into a very sophisticated social and legal system, which unfortunately did not survive the Romanisation of Christianity and the later British colonisation.

The idea that pagan times were a golden age for women is pure romanticisation.
Well yes you are right, Barr77 but has anybody here claimed it was 'a golden age for women? It is a fact that women had rights in Celtic society that we then lost for centuries, millennia even. Golden age? Of course not. But women in Celtic society had a greater range of roles and rights than women in contemporary societies, which, incidentally, horrified their enemies and was one of the reason for branding the Celts as barbarians - they couldn't control their womenfolk!

Yes literacy. The Romans never invaded Ireland yet it became Christian and even re- evangelised Northern Britain. Surely part of the attraction was this fancy new technology? Even my pagan friends grudgingly admit we probably wouldn't know much about the Irish or Welsh mythology if the monks hadn't preserved it. The oral tradition is fascinating but it will only take you so far.

You don't have to believe in the supernatural to appreciate that there's a huge overlap between the teachings of the NT and those of (other) philosophers who've tried to come up with an ethical framework (my view is that only a psychopath or idiot would fail to see that enlightened self-interest demands an at least partly Rawlsian approach, but YMMD).

Creating a thriving society does not depend on the application of metaphysics, but of game theory.

Interesting. I am coming across more Orthodox people. Online that is , haven't met any in the wild yet that isn't actually Greek or Ukrainian. I've no idea what the doctrinal differences are but the music and sheer spectacle must be a big attraction. And I suppose you can escape the Catholic v Protestant bitching.

But when you have secular right wing politicians essentially backing up fundie Christian ideals, you're in trouble.

If non-extremist christians unite with cultural christians then potentially that could be a powerful pro-women's rights voice that has christianity in the name and can undermine extremist christians attempts to punish women for wanting / having sex.

Isn't "cultural christianity" a way for atheists to acknowledge the massive influence christianity has had on these isles, to acknowledge that a normal british atheist morality is often fairly similar to a normal british christian one, and to offer a hand of friendship and unity to christians? "We are not your enemy and you are not ours - god or otherwise we have so much in common?"

Isn't reaching across divides and unity exactly what is needed now?

We cannot unite everyone (not least TQ+ ideologues and muslims, they have nothing in common)... the best we can do is recognise when our big group has loads in common with another and offer a hand of friendship.

We had an anti abortion March here recently. I saw a good few people in abortion is murder tshirts. All Christians. We need to be very very worried.

The critical thing Christianity added to religious practice in these islands was literacy. Many Mediterranean cultures had it before Christianity but the north and western regions didn't, and it was transformative.