Another breastfeeding one

I haven’t read the full thread but I’d not be so confident that this is just about trans men.

Emma Pickett shared a reel recently reviewing a new bf book in glowing terms which specifically refers to males feeding and their milk being as good as female mothers’.

she even added a picture of the page saying that.

LLL uk have gone full alphabet soup. Highly like this one has

I can't see it's been shared already but there is a good article about why sexed language is important in maternity care https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/global-womens-health/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856/full

I'd urge everyone to have a read.

However you describe it you are singling people out who may not want to. The one or two transmen may not be in the least bit offended at women looking for support from a group of women and using terms that come naturally.

For example, even though this is Mumsnet sometimes we get trans activists starting a thread assuming everyone is a mum or female. There's the odd male poster but they don't expect threads to be directed them, they just clarify they are male when needed.

I don't agree that there's much vitriol on this thread or forum. These rules are compelling language in quite an aggressive way and people are annoyed. Breastfeeding is only something that women can naturally do, along with giving birth, and feel a familiarity with other women.

It's about expecting people to self censor how they naturally speak about basic biology to be inclusive. The implications that doing otherwise is unreasonable when actually you are expecting people to view some breastfeeding people in a way that is not neutral, natural or necessary.

It goes beyond politeness and preferred pronouns - it's an area where sex and identity as a member of ones sex is key. It's not about gender, it's about sex. And so refusing these terms actually erases women as a sex.

They’re just asking for people to not assume everyone else in the group identifies as a woman. Not asking you to erase your own womanhood.
They are already using the term breastfeeding, and they aren’t saying you can’t refer to yourself as a woman or a mother. If I was addressing any kind of public forum, I would never assume everyone’s gender unless I personally knew them.
Non binary females and trans men can breastfeed and deserve support, but might feel alienated or lose their voices if they were looking for help breastfeeding and it was all “mama’s” and “ladies”.

I get the bigger issues of erasure, but surely this isn’t that big a deal- every single person that’s breastfeeding in this group will of been born with breasts and a womb, and will either be a woman, non binary, or a trans man. (Edited to say that I realise babies aren’t born with breasts 😅).
And if, as an example, someone might have the opinion that biological sex is the same as gender, then that person would say these are all women! And they all deserve to feel comfortable when seeking help breastfeeding on a public forum.

Except she never said the nhs has NO lactation experts at all. Many people in the nhs including many midwifes- the people youd expect to be the most knowledgeable within an NHS setting are actually quite uneducated around breastfeeding and how to initiate breastfeeding.
Olivia Hinge - an IBCLC midwife has a post where many within a health care profession disclose that they truly did not receive any training around breastfeeding - https://www.instagram.com/reel/DOWCB_iAmGC/?igsh=eXNiMXgwd3d0MG03
But if you feel confident in using the nhs as your sole source of lactation support that is for you to do as long as you feel well informed, supported and you feel all your support is factual is all that matters.

But as is our group- factual, informed, supportive and evidence based, professionally trained support. Hence why unlike many breastfeeding and lactation support groups on Facebook we dont allow people to just comment whatever, whenever because its important to us as admins that our members receive safe and factual advice instead of the masses of information - although given in good faith - can actually be very harmful and dangerous to a lactating parents situation.

All the ways I stated above were very transparent with our accreditations we have to be by law and per our insurance 🤦🏼‍♀️ so members are made well aware. We absolutely are regulated by the companies and organisations we did put training with who provide our insurance. So anything we do on the group is scrutinised by them and we have to be inline with our regulatory bodies.

They have very few and far between a lot of trusts don't employ IBCLCs etc they may have some infant feeding midwives but again the amount of training is often less than desirable. Most are given the bare basics of training.

I don't care about pissing people off other people's transphobia is irrelevant to me unless they try to bring it to my group then they can leave as specified. Not sure why they'd want to be in a group who's ethos they don't agree with so surely it's best for them to leave too.

How would group members now you’re accredited?!

Facebook admins aren’t regulated at all. Don’t be ridiculous.

You could be anyone, it’s a huge stretch to assume people would trust you.

And yes I’d absolutely trust qualified NHS staff over some random anonymous person on social media. The fact you think the NHS has no lactation experts is hysterical.

Do what you like. But if you don’t want to piss people off so they talk about you, don’t do weird things like control people’s language and kick them off if they don’t buy into trans delusions

We are all regulated though by our training providers and insured. The fact you think the NHS is the best place for Lactation support shows you're uneducated around the subject. The vast majority of NHS professionals will have barely any formal training. It's actually scary how little they have.

You not remembering rules sounds like a you issue not a me issue. It's all over the group and 99.9% of members manage to follow them without any issues. There's a few slip ups here and there but when they happen again the vast majority are respectful and we move on

Thanks for the suggestions but I don't need any from you I've managed to run the group successfully for 8 years. I'm managing fine.

Yes I would trust medical professionals in a NHS setting and not some randos on Facebook on a group that isn’t regulated or commissioned by a healthcare provider

TBH I always think the OTT rules, I’m on a few FB groups and don’t distinguish or remember which rules are in which group. I read it once, then it falls out my head. It’s not that deep for most people. It might be all your life but it’s not other people’s.

Anyway good luck to you. I would suggest being less aggressive and true inclusivity means accepting people no matter their views. Also men can’t breastfeed. Chest feeding isn’t a thing. Women can’t be men

Peace out ✌️

Oh and it's also explained on our cover image of the group that people can see when jointing. It's funny youd trust 'medical professionals' most of which have very little training in lactation over those specifically trained in support.

I think that's something you gauge off the individual group as people use them for different things and different groups have different thresholds for what they'll allow in the conversation- that's probably why there is a need for adequate moderation so everyone is clear and can make an informed choice. One previous group I had not long joined completely imploded because of other chat that was derailing the entire group away from feeding related topics and it got horrible very quickly and ended up shut down which i was really gutted about because at the time I was really isolated and was getting a lot from it. So unfortunately I think there needs to be moderation to some extent and obviously people have the right to know what to expect from moderators which means you need terms of use which everyone agrees to that's laid out at the start. Otherwise it can get messy fast because everyone has different views/thresholds.

Well because it's explained in the group information they can see before they join, it's in the group questions they have to answer before joining, once they are accepted in to the group the first post that pops up also explains it to every bee member, each week all new members are tagged in a post that explains the rules, the rules are pinned in the feature section of the group... We literally have it explained all over the group. Every post goes through admin approval first. It's all made extremely obvious to all members. There's also featured posts introducing the admins and their training background etc.

But how would members know that? In a medical setting I know I’m with professionals. I wouldn’t have a clue in a Facebook group and think it was a bit odd that admins were acting like medical professionals. Especially if they think women can become men.

Well then our group wouldn't be the right place for them considering we are a team of fully trained admin and the group is admin led primarily to ensure safe accurate information is given by trained individuals. Not myths and inaccurate information peddled by untrained people which can be extremely damaging.

So if they want a less formal platform to just natter to other parents, moan, vent etc out group isn't for them.

That sound like hard work. Would put me off massively.

Wouldn’t consider myself lucky to be added to a Facebook group within hours. For accurate medical information I’d rather use a proper NHS service staffed by people actually qualified to judge what safe advice is. Surely people don’t expect that level of information and just want a place to speak to other BF mums or just try new things, or just have a moan or share stories

Hours if youre lucky - can be days depending on how busy it is, how many admins are active etc or there are groups that allow all posts but don't check responses and often there's lots of unsafe inaccurate information shared. Phone lines are definitely a better option or local infant feeding services, an IBCLC if possible etc.

When I struggled to feed DD, I was desperate. I needed women with experience at 11pm to tell me WTF I was doing wrong. I went to a Facebook group to get help.

If I’d been told by some trumped up little wannabe dictator that I couldn’t use a certain language in my greetings I’d think they were such a massive loser who don’t care about women but are on a power trip.

Why the need to even over-moderate. Just let people crack on and say whatever harmless terms they wanna say

It’s really not needed.

A man is an adult human male.

No matter how we dresses or how many stereotypes of women he perpetuates

There are ways to get support when in immediate crisis. LLL for example have phone numbers available which were a god send for me when mine stopped nursing one weekend and I was in a panic. Similarly text chains attached to in-person support groups.

A moderated Facebook page is not usually going to be the best place for a crisis because they all have moderation processes and if they don't they really should for safeguarding purposes. I've been on multiple bf groups at various points and I've never been able to post directly I've always had to wait for an admin approval which could be hours or longer.

ETA that given your earlier comments about being on loads of bf pages and groups (which you were going to slander the other poster and her page on) I find it strange that you don't know this unless you perhaps are only reading without posting on them.

Then they don't need to be in it do they? They can find another which aligns with their beliefs more no one is held hostage in the group.

Except "cis" is needed as it signals that the person in reference aligns with their biological sex

If a mother is desperate the last place she should be going is to an online group which relies on admin being available at the time she needs which often they may not be due to their own work, their own children, their lives etc it's not a 24/7 service. It's completely volunteer led. They'd be better utilising the breastfeeding helpline which is 24/7/365 and allows them to physically speak to a human not online message which takes time and can often be delayed. New members also cant post for the first 3 days whilst they read the rules, read all the guides etc. We also have a rule that URGENT posts are sent to the admin inbox not the group due to said delays. But again as this is manned by volunteers help is not instantaneous so we would not be the correct source for support for someone who is desperate.

Emotional manipulation tactics haha I've read it all now.

*men

No cis needed