Another breastfeeding one

That's a good way of putting it, thank you.

Not only exclude women but they seem to have excluded grammar as well.

I suppose the logic is that if the accepting-femaleness group never hears or uses the term "Hey mamas", it won't hurt them. Whereas the wishing-they-were-male group (even though it's a tiny number) would be deeply wounded by the idea that they're being called "mamas". So according to this organisation, it's not really the numbers that are most important, but the degree of harm done to one group versus another. Of course we'd tell them that nobody's obliged to cater to anyone else's delusions! And then they'd kick us out.

So there are a lot of new mothers who know that everyone who’s given birth and is breastfeeding is female.

And there’s a tiny number who believe that some new mothers might actually not be female or mothers, but might be male or in some unexplained way unsexed. An even smaller number of whom may try to insist on everyone else pretending to believe this too.

And you choose the tiny, controlling group with the daft belief?

But then you have to assume that the group of people who will be upset because somebody says 'hey mamas' is larger that the group of people who naturally say 'hey mamas', but are going to feel excluded by a breast feeding group that regards their natural way of speaking as offensive.

I suspect the second group is much larger.

I missed whatever it was that got deleted. Hope everyone is ok.

I was thinking about this today.

Language is what helps us find our tribe. We find ‘people like us’ in lots of ways, including by familiar language.

‘Hey Mammas!’ would irritate people like @Merrymouse and me, but appeal to others. Those people would respond, Merrymouse and I would scroll on by.

Someone might they’ve been blessed by God with their perfect little bundle, but struggle with… Some would scroll past with a shudder, others would offer prayers for things to get easier.

In controlling what language people use, you are stopping people making connections and finding friends.

Oh sugar, that might come next! I saw the post from the employee around insurance.. and that applies to the in person group and organisation as a whole.

Yes I disagree with the changing of language. I was just pointing out that this is to help women and not men.

The whole thing is absolute nonsense.

It's a bit condescending isn't? The transmen haven't asked that other group members must not have post using the phrase mothers, mums etc to refer to the group.

There's disadvantages to those who naturally use these terms and want to feel some shared motherhood ("how do other mums find...") as well as starting to erase these terms in general discourse. And time spend deleting posts and messaging.

It's not an in person group it's a large FB group, of which a few may have gender dysphoria who may or may not see some general posts. Along with many having all sorts of other conditions who ignore terms they dislike. Blind coping with "seeing."

You are on a site called Mumsnet. Do you think this should be renamed?

Should noone encourage men to get tested for prostate cancer because that excludes those who consider themselves women?

Given that posts can take hours or days to be approved on a moderated site (which is appropriate and important for safeguarding), I'd think this was appropriate in a situation like mastitis that would need an urgent response so that sounds completely reasonable to me that a poster would go directly to inbox to get a faster response from a trained admin...

I can.

No, we don't. We can call ourselves women. But when addressing the group, to include women who pretend to be men, we address other people too.

I know it's fucking stupid. But I think babies being fed properly is a priority here.

Yes.

They're not though and that's my point. This is helping women.
It's not to help men.

So I'm not mad at it becuase it's trying to help confused women. I don't want a baby to miss out on being breastfed their tailor-made lactation just because their mother is being silly and thinks she's a bloke. 💁

I hope so @TaupeMember or there's genuinely a midwife out there analogising someone using the word "mum" in a breastfeeding group to racist slurs...🙄😂

Most parents are proud and chuffed to be called mum and dad!

Sorry if you didnt feel that way

@MisssCackle Very well put.. STMWBec has said they actually delete a posts that uses the term "mums" etc. and asks them to use "gender neutral" terms. In a breastfeeding FB group FFS.

How is that inclusive? For a lot of women with mental health issues or not that's going to be upsetting or demoralising.

It's not even at the request of anyone trans. Those transmen I've come across seem quite pragmatic, especially as these feminine terms aren't addressed at them personally.

I presume if STMWBec were running mumsnet they'd rename it and insist no OP addresses any questions to "mums"...

But you have admitted you don’t even know what trans folx want or need. Why have you not asked those trans folx what they require from you? I mean, the title of your group is triggering enough, but your language in this thread, particularly your use of “cis” and your refusal to accept trans folx as they truly are shows you are not as inclusive as you pretend. You have said you don’t see TM as men, you refuse to allow TW in, even if they are lactating and you continue to use triggering and offensive language. You have even accused me of transphobia as you are obviously not educated enough in how to respect trans folx.

Yes, it’s cruel. These hideous people running these groups would’ve been very at home running workhouses back in the day, sitting in judgment on those who need their help.

Absolutely agree. It’s just rancid authoritarian guff, which just happens to alienate women from talking about and inhabiting their bodies at a time when they should be encouraged to feel confidence in their biology and acknowledge how astonishing it is.

@STMWBec
I remember trying to breastfeed after a traumatic birth. I was very ill, in pain, frightened, and desperate. I had just become a mother and I was responsible for keeping this tiny thing alive.

If the price of breastfeeding support, in order to do what I thought was the best thing for my baby, was to agree that I would use specific language, or I wouldn't use specific language, I would have done it. I wouldn't have even realised at the time what I was doing, what I was actually agreeing to or what I was giving away. I would have thought I had to do so as the price of help for me and my baby. And I suppose I would then have had to remember not to use the most natural and obvious words, like mother, when I asked anything.

You may think that all the women who go along with this are happy with it and agree with you. I suspect that is not the case. It is far more likely that many of them feel they have no option.

You may think you are "being kind", but to the thousands of women who may be in a similar situation, it is a misuse of your position and a weaponising of their vulnerability. You are exercising power over them at a time when they may barely be able to function. It is cruel.

It’s about disciplining women not to say - or even allow ourselves to think - that maybe female bodies and female experiences might matter

That’s why it’s always aimed at women, often at our most vulnerable times, not at men’s groups.

"Inclusive" language isn't terribly inclusive of those for whom English is an additional language, of those with learning disabilities, or of GC women, is it?

In a female only group, insisting on the erasure of female terms like mother or woman is an act of misogyny. Our language matters. Without words to describe our sex and our experience, we are disempowered.

For the tiny number of women who have a gender identity (many of us don't, whatever Stonewall says) and regard themselves as not women despite having given birth and breastfeeding I imagine their cognitive dissonance between physical reality and mental gymnastics is something no amount of "hi everyone" can resolve. They've just been through the most female possible thing to do. Denying it is fruitless.