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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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Namitynamename · 15/09/2025 20:52

Ironically Thomas Sowell was a fan of the Reaganism/classic conservatism that a lot of the Trump/MAGA voters are actually repudiating. Don't get me wrong I would find Sowell way more palatable than Trump. But his "constrained" vision has been replaced by an idealistic/nihilistic one. You need balance between wild idealism and a sort of stodgy "can't be helped put up with it".

TheUnusuallyQuerulentMxLauraBrown · 15/09/2025 20:51

From Andy Ngo’s digging, ‘Luna’ has been trans for less than a year, so may well be mostly ‘boymoding’ IRL and the female persona exists largely via character creation in video games and the odd filtered selfie.

That would explain why the neighbours at the apartment block said Lance didn’t look trans and how Lance’s family knew he was ‘transitioning’ but didn’t have a new name for him.

All of the ROGD parenting groups and forums are full of parents of late teen boys/young men like this, they announce they are transitioning and then continue to look and act in exactly the same way they always did (locking themselves in their bedrooms to play video games).
They convince themselves that if they inject hooky estrogen for a couple of years they will be able to effortlessly pass as biologically female humans.

It seems to be a very online-era specific, newly emergent version of AGP. They often identify as lesbians but are either celibate or in homosexual relationships with other men (who also identify as women). Makes you wonder if Tyler also had transition ambition but hadn’t gone public with it yet.

Namitynamename · 15/09/2025 20:47

OneAmberFinch · 15/09/2025 20:29

Not exactly left vs right, but I usually think of the division between the two "visions" outlined by Thomas Sowell in A Conflict of Visions - either idealistic or constrained ideas of human nature.

I don't always think of myself as having "moved from the left to the right" but certainly I do think I've moved from an idealistic worldview (where you sit down with a blank paper and design a society) to a constrained one (where you become comfortable with a bit of hodgepodge and exceptions because humans are messy and the rules for rubbing along nicely together are also messy).

Anyway, why did Marx only drink herbal infusions?

Because property is theft...

I don't think that fudging things is particularly right wing. Make do and muddle is a very traditional British way of doing things that predates the French Revolution even. What gets me a bit is when people complain about the idealism of the left (fair) but then continue to call for very simple solutions to complex problems. I guess I don't get why Nigel Farage is allowed to be unrealistic.
Actually I probably have moved further to the lefty. I don't think I have utopian ideals. But things have been getting steadily worse since 2008 and I don't think it's sustainable. Either there is some radical new thinking (not to fix all the problems no-one can but to address the big ones) or you will get extremists elected. I just don't think that the housing situation etc can continue indefinitely and blaming immigrants won't fix it so we will keep having to find other bogeymen until an actual answer comes along. It would be better to start thinking of answers now.

SionnachRuadh · 15/09/2025 20:33

Yeah, I've definitely moved to a view of a constrained society where we have to learn to be comfortable with tradeoffs and messy compromises.

Partly it's having been close to political decision making in a professional capacity, which has taught me:

  • that policy problem that all your friends think is really simple, actually has all sorts of complex difficulties
  • the next lot of ministers are probably not going to be better at handling long term problems than the current lot

It could make you very cynical, but I like to think I'm just a realist.

I've departed from left wing politics because most leftism never gets beyond the stage of loudly demanding cutted up pear.

OneAmberFinch · 15/09/2025 20:29

Not exactly left vs right, but I usually think of the division between the two "visions" outlined by Thomas Sowell in A Conflict of Visions - either idealistic or constrained ideas of human nature.

I don't always think of myself as having "moved from the left to the right" but certainly I do think I've moved from an idealistic worldview (where you sit down with a blank paper and design a society) to a constrained one (where you become comfortable with a bit of hodgepodge and exceptions because humans are messy and the rules for rubbing along nicely together are also messy).

Anyway, why did Marx only drink herbal infusions?

Because property is theft...

SionnachRuadh · 15/09/2025 20:28

Gotta say though, the idea of an assassin linked to the furry community sounds like something out of a John Waters movie. And not one of the good ones.

Strange times.

GoldThumb · 15/09/2025 20:23

ConcernedFarther · 15/09/2025 15:20

I think the reason the transgender partner was brought up is because he, the killer had carved trans-ideology quotes onto the cartridges, he had been radicalised in a school/ college and through living with a trans identifying partner.

And he fired then gun right after a question on trans shooters

thatsthewayitis · 15/09/2025 20:21

Well the talk is the FBI is looking into the members of the antifa-trans-furry group.
I don't know any public conservative trans furry groups, so disagree.

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2025 20:09

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/09/2025 17:47

I agree. Anecdotally I’ve seen a lot of trans identified males on social media who say they were MRAs (I imagine the incel type) before they transitioned and “became feminists” 🙄

Incels are regarded as right wing.
Black pill nihilism is regarded as largely right wing.

But transcels are a sub set of incels, but it's hard to argue they are rightwing for obvious reasons.

A transcels who swallowed black pill nihilism would look a lot like Tyler Robinson in theory.

One of the problems here is transcelism isn't being recognised in the way it should be. We see it every day on MN. Not terrorism level but certainly manifesting in a problematic way. It's widespread.

Tyler Robinson loves memes. This is meme culture and the world of 4chan so we know he's likely to have come across black pill nihilism.

4chan culture takes the piss out of everything and it aims to push boundaries and shock and then deny it as some kind of plausible deniably as a 'joke'. So posing as a right wing meme doesn't necessarily mean he's right wing. You need to know the context and his target audience or whether he was taking the piss out of someone. It's deliberately difficult for outsiders to comprehend.

Arguably someone who has come from a strong gun culture where the idea of self defence against tyranny is a prime candidate to look upon the establish as tyranny and to decide it's legitimate to take up arms in a way that someone from the UK wouldn't.

I think our desperate need to box him into left and right neatly is very much part of the problem here.

For me it's highly likely he has influences from across the political spectrum.

SionnachRuadh · 15/09/2025 19:50

Merrymouse · 15/09/2025 19:44

I agree about large state/small state, but far right and far left systems tend to be equally authoritarian.

I think the American dream is to load up your wagon and find some land and escape government, but if you take that to it's extreme you just have anarchy - or maybe feudalism?

Utah is weirdly contradictory in this sense. It's got that frontier culture, but the LDS church also has a very extensive welfare system, whose origins go back to Joseph Smith in the 19th century, but they really rolled it out during the Great Depression. If you're in difficulties the church social safety net is often more helpful than the government social safety net, though they do expect you to make an effort to improve your own situation.

It's the kind of system Frank Field might have approved of.

Merrymouse · 15/09/2025 19:44

ArabellaSaurus · 15/09/2025 19:26

I thought the main difference between left and right was a large or a small state? The former aims to help everyone, but also requires/forces everyone to be more interdependent. The latter allows people more freedom, but offers less assistance.

That can be larger than economics. Freedom and individuality v equity and community.

Globalism and neoliberalism have pushed the right to be more socially engaged, and the left to be more growth driven.

My rough understanding, anyway.

I agree about large state/small state, but far right and far left systems tend to be equally authoritarian.

I think the American dream is to load up your wagon and find some land and escape government, but if you take that to it's extreme you just have anarchy - or maybe feudalism?

NotMyNigelFarage · 15/09/2025 19:35

JamieCannister · 15/09/2025 18:18

Because they asked nicely?

[Sorry, dreadful joke]

My new girlfriend said "A small penis shouldn't be a problem in a loving relationship". I still wish she didn't have one though.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 15/09/2025 19:30

Anactor · 15/09/2025 18:22

We’re actually alien invaders. We’re ’obsessed’ by trans because all the hormone trans people take allow them to see our true forms.

Damn, there are some days when I really miss the laugh reaction!

ArabellaSaurus · 15/09/2025 19:26

I thought the main difference between left and right was a large or a small state? The former aims to help everyone, but also requires/forces everyone to be more interdependent. The latter allows people more freedom, but offers less assistance.

That can be larger than economics. Freedom and individuality v equity and community.

Globalism and neoliberalism have pushed the right to be more socially engaged, and the left to be more growth driven.

My rough understanding, anyway.

ArabellaSaurus · 15/09/2025 19:20

Anactor · 15/09/2025 18:22

We’re actually alien invaders. We’re ’obsessed’ by trans because all the hormone trans people take allow them to see our true forms.

Don't tell 'em, Pike!

Merrymouse · 15/09/2025 19:10

JamieCannister · 15/09/2025 18:55

Horsehoe theory again... Ultra conservative / repressive > conservative > progressive > regressive woke and we are back to the start.

Liberal/authoritarian - I mean liberal as in the opposite of authoritarian. Woke is very authoritarian, anti free speech etc.

If liberal means more individual choice that can mean, fewer rules around abortion, but also fewer rules around gun controls. I think American seems much more idealistic when it comes to both these issues and both sides root their arguments in individual freedom, whereas the UK is far more pragmatic.

If authoritarian means ensuring people stick to a prescribed set of behaviours and beliefs, that can mean, as you say, 'being woke', or complying with the rules of a religion.

borntobequiet · 15/09/2025 19:06

JamieCannister · 15/09/2025 18:00

An ideology which claims to be morally superior to every other, and which actively believes in using violence to defend itself (including against words, which can themselves be violence) is highly likely to be more violent than any other ideology.

Most ideologies/religions embrace violence in one form or another at some point, though some more overtly than others, and they all claim to be morally superior to one another. It’s not that long since Catholics and Protestants were burning each other alive in this country.
Wishing death by fire on those who don’t subscribe to one’s own beliefs does seem to appeal to the genderists more than others, though. I wonder why? Maybe just sheer nastiness.

JamieCannister · 15/09/2025 18:56

"I'm not sure that within Marxism you can really separate economics from social life, and that may be the origin of some of what we see now."

Can you expand on that briefly?

JamieCannister · 15/09/2025 18:55

Merrymouse · 15/09/2025 18:21

I'm probably being too simplistic, but in my view

Material analysis = based in reality.

Yes, I agree that left/right = economics.

I think conservative/progressive is often in the eye of the beholder. I don't see anything progressive about attacking women's rights, and I think many omnicause positions like re: Israel/Palestine seem quite random.

Liberal/authoritarian also means different things to different people.

Horsehoe theory again... Ultra conservative / repressive > conservative > progressive > regressive woke and we are back to the start.

Liberal/authoritarian - I mean liberal as in the opposite of authoritarian. Woke is very authoritarian, anti free speech etc.

TempestTost · 15/09/2025 18:50

TheKeatingFive · 15/09/2025 18:28

In terms of material reality. Marxism, I understand, is very focused on the real, material reality that you cannot escape from - women's bodies being a prime example.

Its a massive contradiction in leftist TRA adoption.

That's a case where the marxist approach fits very poorly outside of economics. Where the way to reconcile class differences is abolishing class. We all, notionally, become the proletariat, and so we have achieved a new synthesis through the historical processes marxism believes in (quite irrationally from a materialist POV.)

How do you do that with sex? I think this is why some feminists felt the need to invent gender, which then could be abolished, and saw tech to control female biological processes as so foundational, as they too could then be abolished, and men and women could be functionally the same. it was an attempt to see the problem of sex classes from within a type of analysis almost wholly unsuited to it.

TempestTost · 15/09/2025 18:38

JamieCannister · 15/09/2025 18:17

Classical Marxists, who use the language of Marxism and really believe it's all about class, are matrialts with regard to that, etc, are something of a rarity these days, there is the odd one in academia.
Maybe it depends on definitions, but I think if you aren't basing your philosophy in material analysis, you aren't left wing.

What do you mean by material analysis?

Do you agree with my view that Left Right is mainly about economics, whereas conservative-progressive, liberal-authoritarian are mainly separate from left right?

By material analysis I mean looking at the physical, real, conditions of human society. Class, for example, should be defined very concretely, by actual role and activity within the economic structures.

(That being said, I am not sure that Marxism really sticks to this terribly well despite it being an ideal, as we see with its tendency to utopianism and progressivism.)

What is meant by left and right has changed since those terms appeared, more than once. I am not sure it's possible to stop allowing them to do so unless we want our discussion to be so divorced from common usage as to be obscure to most.

Most of the time, now, I think "left" refers mainly to ideas and ideologies that owe their way of thinking, to at least some degree, to Marxism. I would also say however there are different movements and schools of thought within that, much as you have different religious sects, or different wings of philosophical perspectives.

I'm not sure that within Marxism you can really separate economics from social life, and that may be the origin of some of what we see now.

TheKeatingFive · 15/09/2025 18:28

TempestTost · 15/09/2025 18:26

I'm not sure I understand why you think left wing implies materialism?

In terms of material reality. Marxism, I understand, is very focused on the real, material reality that you cannot escape from - women's bodies being a prime example.

Its a massive contradiction in leftist TRA adoption.

TempestTost · 15/09/2025 18:26

Merrymouse · 15/09/2025 18:05

Classical Marxists, who use the language of Marxism and really believe it's all about class, are matrialts with regard to that, etc, are something of a rarity these days, there is the odd one in academia.

Maybe it depends on definitions, but I think if you aren't basing your philosophy in material analysis, you aren't left wing.

The groups are build around race or sexuality or any other thing like that, many of them hard to pin down, or in some cases, like sex, they don't fit well into traditional Marxist ideas about abolishing class.

But they aren't analysing anything. It's a top down approach where charity is doled out to people who don't pose a threat. It's 'noblesse oblige'. We have seen it all before.

This is the form their arguments take around things like surrogacy, for example. Yes, it will benefit individuals as do all benefits for groups. But the argument for it is based on the idea that surrogacy is the only way to create equity for the class of homosexual men..

If surrogacy is to benefit men, you can't put a piece of paper between that and any other man who exploits women's reproductive labour. The only difference is the introduction of technology into the process.

If 'right wing' and 'left wing' have any meaning, it has to be about more than adopting a random set of prescribed views.

I'm not sure I understand why you think left wing implies materialism?

Anactor · 15/09/2025 18:22

Tinytimmy123 · 15/09/2025 18:05

Mumsnet seems to have been taken over by hard right Americans obsessed by trans.

We’re actually alien invaders. We’re ’obsessed’ by trans because all the hormone trans people take allow them to see our true forms.

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