Palestine Action protests

Not to split hairs but there were planned attacks on hotels and mosques (albeit organised on FB and the like but still).

And like I said in my post, me disagreeing with the terrorist status isn't the same as me thinking nothing should have been done. There's a massive sliding scale inbetween... heck they could have been added to the list of active extremist groups and still be tackled under anti terrorism (as many of the far right groups are).

So, you know this how? 🙄 FFS!

I think the difference between the riots and Palestinian action is that PA is an organised group, with members that plan their attacks. The rioters were not an organised group with a name planning attacks. I do think it’s very serious to attack Uk military assets, it takes bloody ages to get weapons made and deployed. Most of us have no idea where these weapons were supposed to go. Allowing PA to continue destroying weapons that the UK uses to protect it’s own interests and the interest of allies seems bloody stupid to me. Impairing our ability to defend ourselves is domestic terrorism.

Oh you are absolutely allowed to protest the government's actions.

You're not, however, allowed to express support for a proscribed terrorist group.

Why are people expressing support for a proscribed terrorist group instead of e.g. holding up a banner that says 'the government have gone too far'?

My main issue is that the Labour Party celebrates movements in history (women's lib, miner strikes) that by their own standards today would have been proscribed as terrorist organisations. There's a terrible hypocrisy there that I cannot understand.

I personally agree with what UN Human Rights Chief Volker Turk said about it all:

Under "international standards" terrorist acts "should be confined to criminal acts intended to cause death or serious injury or to the taking of hostages, for purpose of intimidating a population or to compel a government to take a certain action or not,"

"It misuses the gravity and impact of terrorism to expand it beyond those clear boundaries, to encompass further conduct that is already criminal under the law,"

If they had taken the police hostage and then attacked them with a sledge hammer, then that absolutely warrants a terrorist act. But the use of a sledgehammer as a response to evading attempted arrest falls under existing criminal law. Police are often unfortunately on the receiving end of similar actions all the time. It's not right but it doesn't equate to a terrorist act.

In response to another post, we saw similar destruction and attacks on police during the far right riots - many of which saw innocent people caught in the cross fire. Yet none of those imprisoned were tried as terrorists.

I don't want to go down the route of a police state where the public aren't told the full picture after the fact, under the banner of 'national security'. That is a very slippery slope...We can't hold our elected members to account if we can't fully scrutinise their decisions. (Never mind the fact that the vote on proscribing wasn't taken separately but lumped in with 2 other terrorist organisations).

The law could have been strong in response to what transpired through the actions of a small group. From what we have been told so far, it didn't 'need' to go down this path, but like you said, I suppose we'll find out more during the court hearing.

I think people have a right to protest but I think the bar here would be if there was a far right group which had attacked uk military assets both at an RAF base and a factory, bashed a couple of policemen and a security guard in the head with a sledgehammer, attacked minority owned businesses because they didn’t like the Uk government I don’t know sending aid to Pakistan because the Pakistani establishment is thought to allow jihadi camps to operate within it’s borders.

If there were a group, like this and it had been proscribed as a terror organisation would people on FWR be suggesting that their supporters shouldn’t be arrested because of freedom of speech? Because to my kind there actions are far beyond protest.

Or is that there are people who are hugely and understandably sympathetic to the Palestinians plight and are therefore happy to overlook a bunch of actions that point to an organisation that is happy to damage the interests of the UK (and people may not like it but some of our arms go to places like Ukraine, or help bolster the defences of the Baltics). And also happy to target businesses on the basis of the Nationality/ethnicity/religion of their owners (see above where the factory that was attacked does even supply Israel).

We certainly retain the right to protest the government's actions! Or are you suggesting nobody should ever counter the current government, on the basis that they were voted in by a majority?

I think if you manage to mainly damage Jewish owned property and Uk military assets on purpose and you plan to do more of that then yeah you are trying to use violence to force a change in government policy which actually circumnavigates our democracy. It absolutely does not bolster it. As Yvette Cooper pointed out the public don’t know everything. I’ll be interested to see what the legal challenge throws up.

There was an attack by pro-Palestinian protesters on vehicles in Belgium they thought for some reason were going to the IDF and were actually headed to Ukraine. It was interesting for a few reasons, they were all wearing the same gear, someone had kitted them out. Secondly I remeber listening to the conflicted podcast and one of the hosts raised the possibility of terrorism for sale. He was talking in the context of jihadis acting as mercenaries. But I can’t help thinking it wouldn’t be beyond the realms of possibility that Russia actually funded that particular group because they are highly motivated, pointed them in the “right” direction and gave them “intel”. Sounds conspiracy theorist but it’s russia so yeah.

So there may be reasons that aren’t clear in regards to funding etc that the public doesn’t know about.

It’s not just property is it though, hitting a person with a sledgehammer seems like attempted murder to me. Elbit even says there the factory supplies to the UK armed forces, not the Israelis. So who’s harmed by the destruction of that material…. The UK army.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0mnnje4wlro

The Palestine Action protests have been organised by a group called Defend Our Juries because they think "the people" should be the ones who decide whether someone is a terrorist or a protestor who destroys property as part of a protest.

Parliament are the ones who decided that PA should be proscribed and isn’t that literally what ‘the people’ elect them to do? Make decisions on our behalf?

Having argued that if someone who is on FWR wants to discuss an issue, any issue with those who have shared views about women's sex based rights, of course they should.

But having only just had time to catch up on this it hasn't been a discussion it has been my side is right your side is wrong, based on wildly inaccurate statements about this group is this, this group is that.

If I was to put forward an "arguement" in the same way I would say most socialist feminists are pro trans and anti Israel (ie the state specifically Netanyahu who Israelis want to step down). GC feminists are seen as being Islamphobes who are hijacking the anti semitism argement because in their minds it legitimises thinking killing thousands of women and children is okay.

Seriously, do any of you read back what you have written?

The Palestine Action protests have been organised by a group called Defend Our Juries because they think "the people" should be the ones who decide whether someone is a terrorist or a protestor who destroys property as part of a protest.

Stunning stupid assertions that X, Y or Z has been hijacked are just plain juvenile foot stamping. All you are saying is I think they are wrong, so I will attempt to slur them

For heavens sake grow up.

People have different opinions.

Must growns up able to have a conversation about freedom of speech.

And whether it is up to the Government to say what can or cant be said.

That is the issue.

And whether if you dont believe in a Government having the right to say that (eg Glinner) that you have the right to protest them doing it.

As to why the situation in Gaza and Israel is an issue many in this country think is important is that the UK in particular because of its role in the creation of Israel, and now as a subservient follower of the US has not been neutral in an area of conflict.

If it wasn't about Israel and Gaza how many on FWR would think it okay for the UK to be providing arms and aerial intelligence to bomb women and children?

And that isn't because I am anti Israel but like a lot of "ordinary" people I am shocked at the level of brutality by the state of Israel.

Not that they shouldn't have the right to defend their citizens from attack but wholesale bombing is not and has not secured the release of hostages. As are many Jewish people and Israelis themselves. Just as many people in the UK thought we should never have teamed up with the US in bombing Iraq.

Far from whether those supporting or participating in the PA protests are gullible, I would say those who are gullible are those repeating unsubstantiated cliches.

Although I agree this isn’t technically the place for a discussion about this, the fact is that this is one of the few boards where you can have a nuanced discussion with intelligent people. If you talk about this on the Middle East board it turns into sound bites and name-calling within about 5 posts.

Many of us here have come to reject the packaging or suite of 'correct' beliefs which one must subscribe to in order to align with one's chosen tribe.

I imagine I was active in Left wing circles long before you were ( though maybe I'm wrong and you have been proclaiming this 'pro palestine' position for over 40 years), and I happen to know that hatred of Israel has always been baked in as a necessary article of faith for much of the Left. Most assume this as a rite of passage, rather than due to any personal observation, experience or reflection.

Well yes, communists appear to be able to do class analysis.

But the left in general political discussion is usually more the Corbynites/Greens than the communists. I’m not sure they’re as prevalent.

I don't need to prove to you what I know to be true.

I am not part of 'Your Party' and have no desire to be. But I do know people who are and the events held are as diverse as the 'membership' (I say that in inverted commas as there's no official membership yet and as a result no official membership due diligence being done) Of course there are going to be pockets of TRAs in places, but in other areas, the rights of trans people is very far down the list of things they care about.

(Infact before I was banned on Labour reddit, the TRAs were all whinging that 'Your Party' didn't represent them and calling JC fit to burn. I'm sure it was no coincidence that a few days later ZS came out with her nonsense statement 🙄).

Re Pride, again organised by individuals and the content reflects that. Although I will say that Pride has always been an event for solidarity.

This might suprise you but the more left wing the space, the more likely you are to hear gc views. The majority of people who call themselves 'left wing' are actually centre left liberals, and that view is a hill I will die on.

Depends on the left wing space though doesn't it. The space around "Your Party" may well be more populated by the liberal/progressive left (e.g. your classic 'beardy bros') who are vastly TWAW. It would be different if you were in another left wing space (a Marxist reading group for example).

I think that when you are in an "in group" the people also in that group appear to hold a wide range of views and you see them as individuals. The outgroup, by contrast, appears much more homogeneous and its much easier/feels more logical to make generalised statements about them. Therefore it's also easy to see contradictions "the outgroup thinks X but also does Y hypocrites".

The in group/out group can be defined by different political beliefs, different single issue beliefs, different religions or race etc etc. This way of thinking tends to affect everyone to varying degrees.

What made you think I assumed you were a TRA?

.

I'm not saying you don't exist.

I'm pointing out that if you state your GC views in a particularly left wing space (for example the space around 'Your Party', then you will be attacked for those views and it will be suggested that you are not welcome there and should leave.

I heard from a friend who went to a Pride event that there was more said about Palestine there than there was about gay rights.

The purity spiral around the 'correct views' is strong on the far left.

OK, sure 😁

It honestly never crossed my mind if you're a TRA, your assumptions are also way off 😵‍💫

Ignorance and false assumptions also get us nowhere