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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gay men and surrogacy - the new “be kind”?

714 replies

Tootingbec · 06/09/2025 21:27

Just seen a LinkedIn post from a gay man who is writing a book about the surrogacy “journey” he and his husband went through. Cue gushing comments about how amazing this is…..

It has really upset me. The sheer fucking privilege of gay men to buy babies and then be lauded and praised for it like they were super heroes. And untouchable to criticism due to blinkered “be kind” beliefs about the poor gay men who just want a family like heterosexual men.

Where do people think these babies come from? Do you think people delude themselves that all these gay men just have kind, altruistic female friends who happily have a baby for them? As opposed to exploiting vulnerable and desperate women in India, Mexico and the like.

I feel so angry - women are just fucked over and abused time and time again by men and it is all dressed up as progressive when it is the exact opposite.

When I was a younger women I loved having gay men in my social circle. They seemed like “nicer” more lovely men than most straight men. Now I realise that underneath it all they just the same sexist, privileged tossers as many straight men are. They want a baby? No problem - buy one! They want to invade women’s spaces? No problem - just reinvent yourself as “the most vulnerable in society”!

It’s like the scales have fallen from my eyes.

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TheJoyOfWriting · 11/09/2025 02:15

TempestTost · 10/09/2025 23:49

How is it homophobia, it's nothing to do with them being gay.

Tbf they probably would be related to one of them.

Otoh ofc it's not homophobic, there's the same issue w couples who use sperm donors, single male adopters, too.

PlanetJanette · 11/09/2025 01:06

TempestTost · 10/09/2025 23:49

How is it homophobia, it's nothing to do with them being gay.

Two men living together and raising a child together is nothing to do with them being gay?

Also FYI a child’s legal parent is not ‘unrelated’.

TempestTost · 10/09/2025 23:49

GreenFairy93 · 10/09/2025 22:45

Wow. You call gay men having children a risk to the child because they are living with an "unrelated male"!?

That's pure homophobia.

How is it homophobia, it's nothing to do with them being gay.

TempestTost · 10/09/2025 23:48

Livpool · 10/09/2025 11:44

Same as infertile heterosexual couples then?

I don’t agree with surrogacy but i don’t understand your diatribe against gay men

The issue is not really the men themselves.

It's that one of the arguments used now to say we must allow surrogacy is that it is homophobic not to allow it, or gay men can't have children.

There are examples of people saying just that in this thread.

A lot of people are scared to death to be accused of any kind of thing labelled as a phobia or ism, they reflexively agree to avoid even being confronted with such an accusation.

So claiming that it is homophobic to be against surrogacy is a way to shut down people's thinking on the issue.

GreenFairy93 · 10/09/2025 22:45

Arran2024 · 10/09/2025 13:40

When ivf was first introduced and then surrogacy became legal, we were given all sorts of reassurances about how it would be used. Over time the boundaries have shifted considerably and we now have gay and single men buying babies on no more than a whim.

Gay men often recruit two surrogates at once so they can each have a biological child. So these children are not related unless they used the same egg donor, are probably a few weeks or months apart in age, each living in a household with an unrelated male (which is the biggest danger for children).

But anyway, surrogacy was always sold to us as an act of sisterhood for a woman who could not conceive. In this respect her husband is not the issue - surrogacy is a way of one woman helping another. Commercial surrogacy is not allowed in the UK.

Most women who use surrogates do so after exhaustive tests, miscarriages, failed IVF etc. They have gone on a journey. Very few are just contacting an agency from scratch.

Men on the other hand won't have come to it from fertility issues and it's rarely an act of altruism. It's a commercial transaction.

And they are the ones posting about it on social media. Most hetro couples don't because they want to blend in down the line. So you rarely see posts from them.

Edited

Wow. You call gay men having children a risk to the child because they are living with an "unrelated male"!?

That's pure homophobia.

NorthernBogbean · 10/09/2025 21:18

I've never thought surrogacy was a good thing. Back in 1985 it seemed clear that Kim Cotton was advocating for something which was essentially selfish and could not be regulated, despite her presentation of it as an essential good for infertile couples.

Surrogacy is always selfish in that the wants of adults are considered before the needs of children. As pp have pointed out, surrogacy by its nature inflicts separation trauma on a newborn - this alone is an unjustifiable result of fulfilling adult wants.

Surrogacy is, essentially, the commisioning of a child by people with the resources to do so. It differs from adoption - which has its own dark side historically - in that it's a transaction designed to actually bring an infant into being, involving the loss of the natural mother.

Adults who want children to themselves, to be treated legally as their own and don't want that to be a compromise will justify surrogacy and will minimise the potential harms to the children delivered by surrogacy, from attachment problems to identity struggles and this is before scenarios such as rejection of disabled infants, parental rights disputes and other breakdowns of relationships and agreements are considered.

Those who think surrogacy is not essentially commercialised and that exploitation of poor women can be guarded against are living in a dreamworld. 'Expenses' are just payment by another name to 'comply' with local laws. People with resources will always be able to circumvent barriers to commercialisation while surrogacy is legalised, often by shopping internationally. The potential for surrogacy to be further commercialised is huge.

No-one has a right to have children. It's an unfairness of human life that some people can and some can't. Yes it will feel unfair to infertile couples that fertility treatments work well for some, or that feckless parents can have kids, yes it will feel unfair to gay men that lesbian couples can have babies by informal donor. It is 'unfair', and many, many aspects of life are. The emotional arguments for surrogacy are always expressed in terms of what the commissioning parents want, but that's not an argument if you consider surrogacy to be wrong, which I do.

It's not an argument in favour of surrogacy to point out that crappy people have babies naturally - society mitigates against that as best it can but people can't be prevented from having their own children outside of a nightmare dystopia.

There are a number of interested parties in the normalisation of surrogacy. People taking advantage of surrogates are likely to be well-resourced straight couples but high-profile male couples have certainly been in the news as part of a move towards acceptance - they are inevitably more visible because they have obviously needed surrogates. None of these adults have a right to have children by whatever means necessary.

NotBadConsidering · 10/09/2025 20:49

Maddy70 · 10/09/2025 16:06

I take your point as it's something I wouldn't consider myself but it suits them, the law is quite clear you cannot buy a baby , you can cover expenses. Would you feel the same if it was their sister having the baby for them? I have mixed feelings about it all too but I see it all working out well in this situation

But “expenses” is just buying a baby, isn’t it?

I go to a furniture shop and see a dining table. I ask how much it is. I am told that the raw wood cost £500 and the work hours to make it added up to £500 so the table can by mine for £1000. Am I buying the table or just covering “expenses”?

Vubui · 10/09/2025 19:33

MarvellousMonsters · 10/09/2025 18:27

“Did you get the memo?”

”sit down before you hurt yourself”

WTF are you on about. Stop trying to do mic drops. You seem to be wilfully misunderstanding clearly made points so I’m not going to bother engaging anymore.

You have been challenged and have now pronounced 'oh I'm just not going to respond anymore'? How very predictable.

Off you flounce.

Enough4me · 10/09/2025 18:44

Completely agree OP. Imagine being an adult knowing you were purchased and you can't disagree with surrogacy or search for your mother as you are constantly walking around the eggshells of "be kind".
The high stress of trying to meet the very needs of these men to be the perfect child to fit a created family - I can see future Long Lost episodes where they find other family and feel free to be themselves.

MarvellousMonsters · 10/09/2025 18:27

Vubui · 09/09/2025 21:37

PARENTING requires dedication, sacrifice and most importantly intent.

Not the same, and that's the point. That's a 'not all men' vibe.

I wasn't making any comment on whether surrogate parents should be screened or not. I thought the only allowed idea was that surrogate parents shouldn't exist at all so screening is irrelevant, surely? (Did you not get the memo?)

“Did you get the memo?”

”sit down before you hurt yourself”

WTF are you on about. Stop trying to do mic drops. You seem to be wilfully misunderstanding clearly made points so I’m not going to bother engaging anymore.

Arran2024 · 10/09/2025 16:35

Maddy70 · 10/09/2025 16:06

I take your point as it's something I wouldn't consider myself but it suits them, the law is quite clear you cannot buy a baby , you can cover expenses. Would you feel the same if it was their sister having the baby for them? I have mixed feelings about it all too but I see it all working out well in this situation

The thing is, the sister having a baby is what surrogacy was originally approved for - an act of generosity from one woman to another. But it's not what surrogacy is these days and if we talk about about these sisterhood surrogacies, we are missing the reality of what is going on.

In fact, there are two gay influencers in America who used the sister of one of them. Turns out she works for them! I wonder how easy it would have been for her to say no.

TheJoyOfWriting · 10/09/2025 16:06

CurlewKate · 10/09/2025 15:02

Gay couples can foster or adopt. So can heterosexual couples who cannot have children. Having a child is not a right. Some people can-some people can’t-regardless of sex or sexuality.

Yep, foster, adopt ot a cooarent w straight or lesbian female friend. There ARE other options, much better ones.

Maddy70 · 10/09/2025 16:06

Arran2024 · 10/09/2025 14:35

That anecdote is hardly representative of the industry. And what is the legal status of the child, whose mother gave him away for a few free lunches?

I take your point as it's something I wouldn't consider myself but it suits them, the law is quite clear you cannot buy a baby , you can cover expenses. Would you feel the same if it was their sister having the baby for them? I have mixed feelings about it all too but I see it all working out well in this situation

OrangePieHigh · 10/09/2025 16:00

CurlewKate · 10/09/2025 14:30

Interestingly, one of the many crimes the Duchess of Sussex allegedly committed was to have her children by surrogate. Unforgivable, apparently. Tom Daly? Hero Father of the Soviet Union. As usual, things are different for men.

Not that interesting that crazies on X are alleging Meghan Markle didn't give birth.

Tom Daley however, has come under much scrutiny. Odd you compare the two.

CurlewKate · 10/09/2025 15:02

Gay couples can foster or adopt. So can heterosexual couples who cannot have children. Having a child is not a right. Some people can-some people can’t-regardless of sex or sexuality.

Autumnsherealready · 10/09/2025 14:52

Throneofgame · 06/09/2025 23:13

In your view, how should gay couples have a child?

Adopt.

TheodoreisntBeth · 10/09/2025 14:49

bumbaloo · 10/09/2025 10:40

So why are they any more evil than the man in a heterosexual couple using surrogacy.

it is completely homophobic.

No one said anyone was evil. And it's not that gay men buying babies is worse than straight people buying babies, they're equally wrong.

The point is that gay men are being used as the thin edge of the wedge to try to make it harder for anyone to object to surrogacy in case they're accused of homophobia. Gay men are being used as the acceptable face of surrogacy. That's the subject of the thread, and posters jumping in accusing the OP of homophobia are proving her point.

TheodoreisntBeth · 10/09/2025 14:36

MoltenLasagne · 10/09/2025 13:09

Haven't read the full thread, but I remembered this thread from the time of the surrogacy consultation that wanted to remove the rights of surrogates to their children to "streamline" the process. Essentially they wanted a child to be born without parents. Does anyone know what happened to the consultation?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3651968-The-illegitimacy-of-the-Rumplestiltskin-Surrogacy-consultation

Either way, it completely changed my view from not really considered, to my God it's child trafficking by another name. The horrific situation when the war in Ukraine broke out solidified my view.

The consultation was parked as the government said they weren't looking to change the law on surrogacy at that time.

However, the surrogacy lobby are having another crack at it now, posters can give their views here :

https://surrogacyconcern.uk/take-action-email-the-parliamentary-office-for-science-and-technology-post-and-contribute-to-their-consultation-on-surrogacy-reform-by-5th-october-2025/

Take action: Email the Parliamentary Office for Science and Technology (POST) and contribute to their consultation on surrogacy reform by 5th October 2025

Use our tool below. Alternatively, you can submit your own response on their website by clicking through to the POST submission form. Stop Surrogacy Now UK have published guidance which you may wis…

https://surrogacyconcern.uk/take-action-email-the-parliamentary-office-for-science-and-technology-post-and-contribute-to-their-consultation-on-surrogacy-reform-by-5th-october-2025/

Arran2024 · 10/09/2025 14:35

Maddy70 · 10/09/2025 14:33

You are blurring two different things. Women get "fucked over" regularly.
But your point has little to do with men having families
A gay couple I know have done just this. Another female we know doesn't want to have children so they came to an arrangement. She wasn't paid , but did have expenses , she went privately for every medical appointment, and they bought her lunches out. Hardly "buying" a baby
It suits all of them. The child is now 8 all parties seem happy and the child is in a lovely happy home

That anecdote is hardly representative of the industry. And what is the legal status of the child, whose mother gave him away for a few free lunches?

Maddy70 · 10/09/2025 14:33

You are blurring two different things. Women get "fucked over" regularly.
But your point has little to do with men having families
A gay couple I know have done just this. Another female we know doesn't want to have children so they came to an arrangement. She wasn't paid , but did have expenses , she went privately for every medical appointment, and they bought her lunches out. Hardly "buying" a baby
It suits all of them. The child is now 8 all parties seem happy and the child is in a lovely happy home

CurlewKate · 10/09/2025 14:30

Interestingly, one of the many crimes the Duchess of Sussex allegedly committed was to have her children by surrogate. Unforgivable, apparently. Tom Daly? Hero Father of the Soviet Union. As usual, things are different for men.

OrangePieHigh · 10/09/2025 14:25

Arran2024 · 10/09/2025 13:29

Apologies. They used to be one of the few European countries offering it but that changed in May of this year. You presumably know about the big scandal in Crete?

I do. The Gynecologist in question, was charged with human trafficking and more... It was his clinic and its robust business, in this despicable industry, that brought about a change in the law.

It was a huge scandal and rightly shone a light on how easy fertility clinics like the one in question, offered a legal pathway to something that should be illegal.

I can say that the country was shaken by the large-scale operation, which the media rightly called, baby trafficking.

It still remains legal within this new strict framework though. I remain hopeful that it becomes entirely illegal in the near future.

Grammarnut · 10/09/2025 14:10

Tootingbec · 10/09/2025 13:56

I am just going to say again that I have highlighted gay men and surrogacy to make a particular point - that is, by it being seen as progressive and inclusive because it is gay men doing it, it is starting to (in my opinion) to make surrogacy seem a legitimate option and “kind” option in a way that women or celebrities doing it always seems to be tinged with the distaste it deserves.

And to make my point I am calling out gay men. But I fundamentally disagree with surrogacy for everyone - male or female, gay or straight.

There is no right to have children. And a gay couple are not infertile, they are same sex so cannot make a baby between them. I agree entirely that surrogacy is wrong for everyone, gay, straight, male, female.

OldCrone · 10/09/2025 13:57

Livpool · 10/09/2025 11:44

Same as infertile heterosexual couples then?

I don’t agree with surrogacy but i don’t understand your diatribe against gay men

I can't see a diatribe against gay men in the post you replied to.

Tootingbec · 10/09/2025 13:56

Livpool · 10/09/2025 12:47

Surrogacy never looks sympathetic to me - so perhaps I am wrong. I just don’t think ‘blaming’ gay men is the answer

I am just going to say again that I have highlighted gay men and surrogacy to make a particular point - that is, by it being seen as progressive and inclusive because it is gay men doing it, it is starting to (in my opinion) to make surrogacy seem a legitimate option and “kind” option in a way that women or celebrities doing it always seems to be tinged with the distaste it deserves.

And to make my point I am calling out gay men. But I fundamentally disagree with surrogacy for everyone - male or female, gay or straight.

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